Ensign
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 2
# 21
12-23-2012, 06:06 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by connectamabob View Post
I think you're right. I can't quite see the detail in the center well enough to tell if it's the plate or the lid, but there's a dashed rim on the plate which is covered by lid, and I can see that.
I'm working on the design of this opening (or whatever they call it). I'll post the result when it's ready!

It also looks to me that this is a two sided object which flips around to show one side or the other. I'n not quite sure about that yet.
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 2,091
# 22
12-23-2012, 06:44 PM
I say a Battle Cruiser since it was referred by that on the show. Since the KDF does have a lot of them. And the Feds been getting cross overs. I say a Battle Cruiser/Escort hybrid. The fire power of a Battle Cruiser, faster speed and turning rate than the Battle cruiser.

Since they killed the K'Tinga and Vor'cha idea for a C store for me to buy. By making them a Fleet ship. I wouldn't mind buying the K'Vort for my Eng. Capt. Until then I'm getting the Breen Ship to use.

Last edited by farmallm; 12-23-2012 at 07:19 PM.
Captain
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 3,092
# 23
12-23-2012, 07:24 PM
the KDF has NO shortage of battle-cruisers. none. we have, in fact, the best cruisers in the game (and the worst-see "Bortasque").

What KDF lacks are in two major areas:

1. No Science-ship equivalent short of the Vo'Quv (excepting two Gorn vessel types, both of which are out-classed by Fed ships at one tier lower).

2. EFFECTIVE escort-class vessels. Raptors are basically 3/4 scale gimped cruisers in terms of capability, and again, stand about equivalent to Fed escorts 1-3 tiers lower on the tech/capabiilty ladder.

Now, the K'Vort is based on the same art as the B'rel, and only non-canon sources derived from screen-shots really exist regarding length, width, wingspan and class.

Further, going off of CANON statements from the television series, the Defiant is not an "Escort", it's a battleship, so relying on one script from one episode is problematic at best regarding a throwaway line referring to a vessel that only got a few seconds actually on-screen.

In terms of the GAME, KDF science types usually end up riding BoPs as the go-to substitute standard for the role...

So make it what it would naturally be: A true Science ship, with a Battlecloak, shield mult at .99 (a sop to the Feddies), all universals with the following fixed equipment:

4 Science consoles
3 engineering consoles
3 Tactical consoles.

Give it a hull of 30,000 flat, a crew of 150-200 personnel, and a base turn rate of 17, with a fast impulse modifier, 4 weapons front, 2 rear.

IOW, a genuinely IMPROVED Bird of Prey, heavier than a Heggie, so it has a slower turn rate, but makes up for the loss of turn rate by being tougher to take down while decloaked, with ACTUAL science-ship powers (integral subsystem targeting, sensor analysis).

This would fit into a natural evolutionary progression for KDF design work-the Hegh'ta is bigger than the Ki'tang, which is bigger than the Norgh, which is, in turn, bigger than the base-model B'rel, whose IBC gains from the ability to mount armor consoles to make up for the area-of-effect danger posed to cloaked vessels.

For the K'Vort, then, you give it a slight bump DOWN in turn rate, better straight-line impulse modifier, better shields when decloaked and the same TOTAL number of weapons as a Fed or Gorn Science ship, laid out in a more "Klingon" manner.

It leaves room for Raptors and BC's, and room for existing BoPs-it doesn't obselete any of them, nor does it obselete the Gorn vessels, but it would provide a good platform for Sci captains and a GREAT platform for everyone else-depending on role.

and technically, it COULD then be mistaken by Picard/Riker/etc. as a "Cruiser".
"when you're out of Birds of Prey, you're out of ships."

Look into Vanilla PvP if you're tired of the endless pursuit of grind, utterly unbalanced selections of geardo-inspired traits, and generally unbalanced and careless 'development' made mostly to turn this game into a second job.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Sep 2012
Posts: 144
# 24
12-23-2012, 07:47 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by lietenant View Post
I'm working on the design of this opening (or whatever they call it). I'll post the result when it's ready!
Looking forward to it. Every model of the BOB I've ever sen, CG or physical, has used the later torpedo tube muzzle. I'd love to finally see one that uses the original Plasma emitter.


Quote:
Originally Posted by lietenant View Post
It also looks to me that this is a two sided object which flips around to show one side or the other. I'n not quite sure about that yet.
Well, on the original studio model it's a solid cylinder that extends diagonally downward out of the hull (you can see this in the first big pic in patrickngo's first reply to my first post). However, I like the idea that on the "real" ship it's a reversible object. Something like a searchlight or signal light in structure, I imagine.

Last edited by connectamabob; 12-23-2012 at 07:51 PM.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 245
# 25
12-23-2012, 08:04 PM
Quote:
Further, going off of CANON statements from the television series, the Defiant is not an "Escort"
Wut? They officially designate it an Escort in "The Search: 1".

It's a warship, but since the Federation doesn't build dedicated, offensive warships, they officially designated Defiant an Escort.

In the television series.

Sisko: "Officially, she's classified as an escort vessel. Unofficially, the Defiant's a warship. Nothing more, nothing less."

The Search: Part I

So yes. Defiant is officially an Escort.

As for the K'Vort's size, we have the "Yesterday's Enterprise" article on Ex Astris Scientia.

Quote:
When three Klingon cruisers attack the two Federation ships, one of them can be seen passing by above the Enterprise-D. The Klingon ship (in flight mode, wings horizontal) is almost 400m wide, giving us a length of more than 350m. It is obvious the VFX team intentionally scaled them up so as to pose a visually considerable threat to the Galaxy and Ambassador classes.
Sorry, I don't think a ship 400 meters wide would look proper flying around like an escort. At all. The Mogai already looks ridiculous zipping around like an escort.. And we have it officially designated, in that timeline at least, as a battlecruiser. And it's that timeline we're "celebrating".

Gonna' say the same thing I said in the Ambassador thread.

Remember, these are free ships that EVERYONE is going to have access to after doing a 10 minute mission. They shouldn't be super-mega effective. They should look cool, be playable, but they shouldn't represent a new standard in any way, shape or form.

Last edited by wunjee; 12-23-2012 at 08:58 PM.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Sep 2012
Posts: 144
# 26
12-23-2012, 08:32 PM
Kinda underscores my point about the absurdity of it. It was a placeholder for the Vor'Cha, and should be retconned as such, not taken seriously.
Captain
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 3,092
# 27
12-23-2012, 10:22 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by wunjee View Post
Wut? They officially designate it an Escort in "The Search: 1".

It's a warship, but since the Federation doesn't build dedicated, offensive warships, they officially designated Defiant an Escort.

In the television series.

Sisko: "Officially, she's classified as an escort vessel. Unofficially, the Defiant's a warship. Nothing more, nothing less."

The Search: Part I

So yes. Defiant is officially an Escort.

As for the K'Vort's size, we have the "Yesterday's Enterprise" article on Ex Astris Scientia.



Sorry, I don't think a ship 400 meters wide would look proper flying around like an escort. At all. The Mogai already looks ridiculous zipping around like an escort.. And we have it officially designated, in that timeline at least, as a battlecruiser. And it's that timeline we're "celebrating".

Gonna' say the same thing I said in the Ambassador thread.

Remember, these are free ships that EVERYONE is going to have access to after doing a 10 minute mission. They shouldn't be super-mega effective. They should look cool, be playable, but they shouldn't represent a new standard in any way, shape or form.
GHAGH!! sorry about the mistake on the Defiant, but if you've got issues with the Rommy escorts, you maybe should have a look with your shuttles and fighers some time-the Player Tu'Doj fighter's so out of scale it's almost BoP sized (and IS bop sized compared to carrier-pet B'Rel's and B'Roths.)

But as I pointed out-we've GOT cruisers-good ones, better than the competition in most *(non-lockbox) terms.

The Vor'Cha is flat-out BETTER than a Galaxy, the Negh'var's flat out better than an Assault Cruiser, the Tor'Kaht's considered by some to be the largest escort in the game for its manuever and ability to sling the DPS, the K'Tinga's almost an Escort as well.

What we do NOT have, and DO need, is a dedicated sci that isn't a Carrier, but IS comparable to equal-tier Fed vessels. We do NOT have that.

a K'Vort could EASILY be the basis for such a ship-and based on KDF ship architecture and the appearance, it's a hell of a lot more likely to be something OTHER than yet another cruiser. Remember, the Vor'Cha and the Negh'var in side-by-sides on the show, were about the same physical size or slightly LARGER than the NCC-1701D.

So video evidence, and fansite scaling probably should NOT be relied upon to decide a ship's class in the game. Better, instead, to build something that, (unlike the Craptastic Bortasque) actually fits into the evident and apparent design ethos of the KDF, while filling a role that is quite evident in it's lack-and would be seen strategically as a crippling situation that had to be addressed, were the characters acting as they should in wartime, and trying to...uh...win. Electronic warfare capabilty is another weapon, if the KDF is deficient anywhere, it's in that area-but as warriors, they'd be unlikely to reject such systems, or neglect them once it became apparent that such systems can and do have significant impact on the battlefield.

There are reasons you see similarities within classes-look at how Raptors follow a set guideline for how they're made, or KDF Cruisers (minus the craptastic Bortasque). From a warrior perspective the reason for similarities is quite apparent-a similar layout simplifies maintenance and combat training. KDF Sci officers have been using BoPs for years, the K'Vort is laid out like a BoP, not a Cruiser-the reason would follow that if they needed a cruiser for the role, they'd use a chassis similar in layout to an existing cruiser, not design a new cruiser with huge areas of essentially single-use or non-use spaces just to get a look like an oversized bird of prey.

That is the logic from an in-universe perspective. Out of universe, we already HAVE cruisers that are better than the Feds and only matched by Lockbox ships. We don't NEED another Cruiser.

It's what we do NOT have, what we LACK, that needs addressing, that means basing it on either a Raptor, or BoP chassis. of the two, it's easier to justify using the BoP as a basis, with bird of prey like flight characteristics (slightly beefed up) than it is to make a giant cruiser styled like a Bird of Prey, then explain it later.

fWIW, I think Stahl's probably tired of having to explain things that don't make sense, ditto for Borticus.
"when you're out of Birds of Prey, you're out of ships."

Look into Vanilla PvP if you're tired of the endless pursuit of grind, utterly unbalanced selections of geardo-inspired traits, and generally unbalanced and careless 'development' made mostly to turn this game into a second job.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 245
# 28
12-23-2012, 11:41 PM
If they want to do that with the C-store version that's bound to be released at some point after the free one, so be it.

But the free one that everyone can easily get shouldn't be a stepping stone, and shouldn't be particularly better at anything than anything else we've already got.

Which is why I'd like to see it as a Battlecruiser that's about as capable as the tier 4 Vor'Cha, but more maneuverable, with a 4/4 arrangement, with the original Bortas' BOFF layout and the ability to cloak.

I'd play it. Hell, the tier 4 Vor'Cha was the only ship I used until I got my Flor'Kaht

Quote:
fits into the evident and apparent design ethos of the KDF
It's an alternate timeline ship..Nobody says it has to make sense..In the universe the 3rd anniversary event will be celebrating, IE, the universe of Yesterday's Enterprise, the K'Vort was a battlecruiser.

They even say "K'Vort-class Battlecruiser" onscreen..

Last edited by wunjee; 12-23-2012 at 11:44 PM.
Captain
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 3,092
# 29
12-24-2012, 12:23 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by wunjee View Post
If they want to do that with the C-store version that's bound to be released at some point after the free one, so be it.

But the free one that everyone can easily get shouldn't be a stepping stone, and shouldn't be particularly better at anything than anything else we've already got.

Which is why I'd like to see it as a Battlecruiser that's about as capable as the tier 4 Vor'Cha, but more maneuverable, with a 4/4 arrangement, with the original Bortas' BOFF layout and the ability to cloak.

I'd play it. Hell, the tier 4 Vor'Cha was the only ship I used until I got my Flor'Kaht



It's an alternate timeline ship..Nobody says it has to make sense..In the universe the 3rd anniversary event will be celebrating, IE, the universe of Yesterday's Enterprise, the K'Vort was a battlecruiser.

They even say "K'Vort-class Battlecruiser" onscreen..
well...in my case, if they bend to the wills of the majority, it'll go alongside the OTHER ships I won't be buying. I'm pretty happy with the existing Vor'Cha (and Mirror variant, and Retrofit variant), intend on a Negh'var, and will never-again-after-seeing-it-in-tribble-touch the Bortas/Bortasque.

For that matter, we HAVE a faster-turning Vor'cha, it's called the Tor'Kaht, and said vessel has a fairly superb Bridge officer arrangement already for a BC-there ain't a lot of room for improvement there. a "K'Vort Battlecruiser" is redundant, covers ground already well-covered, and offers nothing we don't already HAVE.
"when you're out of Birds of Prey, you're out of ships."

Look into Vanilla PvP if you're tired of the endless pursuit of grind, utterly unbalanced selections of geardo-inspired traits, and generally unbalanced and careless 'development' made mostly to turn this game into a second job.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 245
# 30
12-24-2012, 01:18 AM
Tor'Kaht's also a 4-module ship, which means for most people it'll cost $20.00, since Klingons don't get the benefit of a tier 5 ship they can buy to get the fleet discount.

Tor'Kaht, in the setup I proposed, would have an infinitely better BOFF layout, better consoles, better shields, better hull..

The K'Vort would be a free tier 5 ship that's only slightly better then the tier 4s, adding an aft weapon, and the Free Bortas' BOFF layout.

It'd be a free ship that was relatively fun, but wouldn't be pathfinding and wouldn't obsolete anything..

Last edited by wunjee; 12-24-2012 at 01:21 AM.
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