Empire Veteran
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 89
# 101
12-23-2012, 10:23 PM
You know what I dont get? Most of the people opposed to the nerf..still suggest they are useless and they are easy to counter. If that is the case, why use them? why even argue about if they need a nerf? Wost part is, "It will wreck pve", well if they are so bad and difficult to get them to fire off properly then why use them?

Answer: They are in need of a nerf. The more some one argues about how weak or difficult it is to use the higher the chance its a bit imbalanced. If they were this hard to use, and weak, there would not be the large amount of Tric bombers there is currently in pvp.

And just to get a handle on what people are saying I decided to Tric my ship out, full on with the Temporal sci ship and my fleet mate with the Temporal destroyer, and went into some stfs, both elite and normal. In addition after that we decided to go with escorts.

In both cases they were so simple to use, even too simple. Did we one shot everything between us? No, but we did a good job of face rolling over things that got hit by them.

Saying that these things are not in need of a little bit of tweaking is like saying the old Viral Matrix was just fine. They dont need to be flattened by nerfs but they do need adjusting.
Empire Veteran
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 89
# 102
12-23-2012, 10:26 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by scurry5 View Post
I agree with your point, which is why I asked that poster how he thought nerfing tric mines would wreck PvE.

Or was your post addressed to that person?
Was more aimed at the general 'doom and gloom' of the whole discussion as well as adding my own 2 plat worth to what you already had said =)
Captain
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 2,881
# 103
12-23-2012, 11:38 PM
where does the whining originate? well, the only place I've seen where lots of people can be exposed to Tric mine spam is Ker'rat, and the only reason, is the tendency of certain...factions in Ker'rat to camp the spawn point.

Tric mines do a fair job of clearing campers. Not GREAT, just Fair.

Of course, when one's entire strategy is to camp the spawn, well...I could see where having something that can foul that up might be kind of painful-esp. if you're doing it (as most Feds do in Ker'rat) out of spite (they don't have "Kill marker" missions like the KDF does...), having those Lulz interrupted by booms could be kind of disconcerting.

Naturally, Cryptic will 'solve' this by making a weapon that's really only useful under an extremely narrow set of circumstances (like the spawn zone in Ker'rat) absolutely worthless.
"when you're out of Birds of Prey, you're out of ships."

Look into Vanilla PvP if you're tired of the endless pursuit of grind, utterly unbalanced selections of geardo-inspired traits, and generally unbalanced and careless 'development' made mostly to turn this game into a second job.
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,400
# 104
12-24-2012, 01:04 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by gojored View Post
If you mean you would like numbers and set-up to be provided in mathematical terms, ok, i'll go with my fleet, and parse and test. And no, i don't one shot cubes and other pve opponents. That only works when they are already down around 40% or better and are weakened by defense de-buffs which i apply. Most of the time when I try to time the release of beta dispersal with trico's the team has already killed the pve opponent, and the trico's explode in empty space. So in the interest of "whining" like YOU pointed out... It depends ultimately upon the personal skills, NOT the equipment. (i don't mind denigrating myself, especially if its to prove my argument through you.) why nerf the tricos and beta disp if it takes skill to use it right, and even then you dont "one-shot" opponents, especially in pvp. Priority target? it was my fleet-mates and we were testing tactics, btw, they have some very good methods of neutralizing the trico beta disp. My point was that you guys cry about anything that seems to be an edge at all in pvp instead of finding a way to defeat it, which my fleet-mates found, (i wasn't the only one using the trico-beta disp in the pvp matches i spoke of.
So, yeah, look for my "intellectually organized" discourse replete with all relevant data, and hopefully that will meet with your approval.
whiningly yours ,
gojored.
I was not really demanding full data sets or anything. It was just that you stated that nerfing trics would wreck PvE, and you did not elaborate any further about your reasons for making that statement. This was what I meant by 'whining', which in retrospect may have been too strong a term. In my opinion, tric mines are rarely used, but when they are, they take very large chunks out of the NPCs' health that is apparently beyond what the devs intended. Therefore, fixing this would hardly 'wreck' PvE.

I do see your argument now. I take it that you say that trics do need some personal skill to be used effectively and hence they should not be nerfed? Based on the statements of others in this thread, trics do require some skill. However, the skill level required is lower as compared to the level needed for other tactics. Hence, I believe that a nerf is necessary to bring the aforementioned skill requirement in line with other methods.

I withdraw that statement about priority targeting, as it was a simple guess based on my experience against tric users. Tric users, in my observation, tend to have built their ships fairly badly in the queues, so I overgeneralised. Sorry about that one.

And yes, I can certainly beat tric mines. EWP and Scatter Volley, with BFI in a pinch usually do the trick for me. However, I feel that something that can push you over the survivability cliff if not destroy you outright in one hit is on the overpowered side. Nevertheless, the further nerfs suggested by the devs are, in my opinion, a bit over the top. All I want to see is the fixing of the crit-one-crit-all bug.

As for the one-shot, I believe that taking out 40% of a cube's strength is pretty heavy, and IMO overpowered in the context of PvE. As for PvP, the tric mines can most certainly one-shot even good PvP players, going by my experience.
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 726
# 105
12-24-2012, 07:14 AM
I always love the counter, you can shoot them down. Due to inefficiencies in the UI we pavpers have 2 choices a clutter of all targettable items or inability to tab target the when you turn the "reticule" for all items except ships off. Then there is the issue that all players of STO have to have the latest greatest PC. I am running a robust rigg that can handle STO but I still shoot invisible torps, mines disappear in warp plasma, I still can't see tractor beams sometimes. So to cut down on UI lag I turned off the "reticules" for pets and spam in general but now I cannot target target spam unless I am faw'ing, or CSV, or torp spread.

On a side note it looks like I will not be on for a awhile my updater is borked and all the supposed fixes don't work.
Hey I Used to be Captain Data, well I guess I still am in game but the account link really screwed everything up
Captain
Join Date: Nov 2012
Posts: 3,465
# 106
12-24-2012, 09:32 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by paneth48 View Post
Was more aimed at the general 'doom and gloom' of the whole discussion as well as adding my own 2 plat worth to what you already had said =)
From where I sit the "doom and gloom" has more to do with Cryptic being unwilling to deal with the actual issues involved with the Tric bombing (DPB, chain crits) while at the same time putting up potential "solutions" that would carry considerable collateral damage (the point defense option for example) above and beyond the mine-laying primary target.
Captain
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 13,330
# 107
12-24-2012, 10:02 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by stirling191 View Post
From where I sit the "doom and gloom" has more to do with Cryptic being unwilling to deal with the actual issues involved with the Tric bombing (DPB, chain crits) while at the same time putting up potential "solutions" that would carry considerable collateral damage (the point defense option for example) above and beyond the mine-laying primary target.
Mmmmmmyeah, cause the stuff that pretty much comes up in every thread on the matter has been ignored for stuff that...mmmmmmnah, never came up in any thread I remember seeing.
Vice Admiral Geist, Klingon Science Officer
I.S.S. Arcadia, Mirror Universe Heavy Cruiser Retrofit
Lieutenant
Join Date: Sep 2012
Posts: 38
# 108
12-24-2012, 05:10 PM
I've got an idea... how about you just Nerf the mines in PVP... that's where the problem originated!

My tricobalt mines are useless now thanks to PVPers... i don't PVP! and i don't know why PVEers should have to put up with people hoplessly whining about how things are too powerful. -.-

there will be a counter argument soon saying how they've been nerfed too much.

This is a big mistake... a little too much nerfing, Tricobalts are suppose to be POWERFUL Subspace weapons!

gonna remove my tricobalts now and replace them with Photon mines... as they will probably do more damage... meaning the TCD Mk XII purple is useless now too

Not Happy D:
Captain
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 856
# 109
12-24-2012, 05:17 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by c0mbustiblelemon View Post
I've got an idea... how about you just Nerf the mines in PVP... that's where the problem originated!

My tricobalt mines are useless now thanks to PVPers... i don't PVP! and i don't know why PVEers should have to put up with people hoplessly whining about how things are too powerful. -.-

there will be a counter argument soon saying how they've been nerfed too much.

This is a big mistake... a little too much nerfing, Tricobalts are suppose to be POWERFUL Subspace weapons!

gonna remove my tricobalts now and replace them with Photon mines... as they will probably do more damage... meaning the TCD Mk XII purple is useless now too

Not Happy D:
Okay, here is what you're not understanding. The Devs didn't nerf them because of PvPers alone. They don't want PvE players 1 shotting 1 million HP NPCs such as gateways in STF's, or Tactical Cubes or any other NPC. It was being used more by PvE players as an exploit, not as a legitimate tactic. You guys were completely bypassing mission steps, you got it nerfed, not us. We just brought it to their attention, something you weren't willing to do because it took away your "I-Win" buttons, oh my! You were exploiting bugs to achieve results the Devs never intended. That is all.

Oh btw, Most PvP teams or any group of 5 PvPers can finish Elite STF's in a matter of 5-7 minutes without resorting to cheap tactics. Just saying.
Quote:
ヽ༼ຈل͜ຈ༽ノ RIYOTT ヽ༼ຈل͜ຈ༽ノ: Have you wondered that maybe all the things they've added to the gaem lately is to literally make PvP unbearable? Because everything they've added has no use in PvE at all; we know the big boss hates 14 yo min maxers
Captain
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 2,881
# 110
12-24-2012, 05:18 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by c0mbustiblelemon View Post
I've got an idea... how about you just Nerf the mines in PVP... that's where the problem originated!

My tricobalt mines are useless now thanks to PVPers... i don't PVP! and i don't know why PVEers should have to put up with people hoplessly whining about how things are too powerful. -.-

there will be a counter argument soon saying how they've been nerfed too much.

This is a big mistake... a little too much nerfing, Tricobalts are suppose to be POWERFUL Subspace weapons!

gonna remove my tricobalts now and replace them with Photon mines... as they will probably do more damage... meaning the TCD Mk XII purple is useless now too

Not Happy D:
Is it really useless, or just not as powerful as before? (can you back with numbers?)
"when you're out of Birds of Prey, you're out of ships."

Look into Vanilla PvP if you're tired of the endless pursuit of grind, utterly unbalanced selections of geardo-inspired traits, and generally unbalanced and careless 'development' made mostly to turn this game into a second job.
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