Republic Veteran
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 3,301
# 41
12-24-2012, 08:16 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by wunjee View Post
You're asking for an escort with a wingspan of nearly a kilometer...

The 440 meter HEC is so big that it looks goofy as an escort..
Size doesn't matter much, I mean we got the Vesta which is almost the size of a Sovereign but handles almost like a escort.
Captain
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 2,785
# 42
12-24-2012, 11:43 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by wunjee View Post
That "dreadnought" BOFF layout is one of the biggest things wrong with the free Bortas.

My proposal, since you apparently didn't read it, was..

Battlecruiser
4 fore
4 aft
10 base turning
0.15 impulse modifier
1.0-1.05 shield modifier
30,000 hull
900 crew
+10 Weapons

BOFFs:

Lt.Cmdr Uni
Lt Tac
Cmdr Eng
Ens Eng
Lt Sci

Consoles:

4 eng
1 sci
4 tac

Could alternatively do:

4 eng
2 sci
3 tac

It'd basically be a Bortas, that we got free last year, with much worse defenses, much less crew, and better maneuverability. It'd have the defensive capabilities of the tier 4 Vor'Cha, with the weapons, consoles and BOFFs of the tier 5 ships.

It'd be a stand-in battlecruiser, just like the K'Vort was supposed to be.

It's not going to have the effectiveness of the Fleet Vor'Cha/Tor'Kaht due to only being a 9 console boat, having less shields, hull and crew. It'd also lack the Flor'Kaht'Cha's +10 engine power.

It's not going to be as tanky as the Negh'Var or Bortas because it has much less hull, shields and crew, but it has better maneuverability. It also lacks the Bortas' +15 weapons power bonus.

I could also argue that the KDF has no intermediate battlecruiser.

You're either stuck with the garbage default Negh'Var, staying with a tier 4 ship, buying the terrible Bortasque, or getting a fleet ship. This could make a good, solid tier 5 ship, without replacing anything else, and without introducing capabilities that no other KDF ship can match.

Because no free ship should do that.



I'd want it because it's a neat ship that's available for a limited amount of time, for free, "celebrating" one of the best episodes of TNG.

A ship doesn't have to replace anything I've already got for me to want it..

I'd want the Ambassador even if it was nothing more then a reskin for the tier 4 Galaxy...I'd still want it..
so...you want the seating of the Veteran Destroyer, (that IS an LTC universal, right?) on a FREE cruiser...and you don't see this as a problem re: the cruisers we have to pay cashy-money for.

we've GOT the intermediate Cruiser covered; it's the Tor Kaht. YES, you have to buy (or grind Dil and convert to zen) Fleet Modules for it, but the role's covered. We can't buy, beg, borrow, or steal a good Science ship, and on the free-to-play end if you want universal seats, you gotta go BoP unless you're a 1000 day vet or a lifetimer.

and you want to give it to everyone who'll sit through a ten minute mission-to use your own words.

Further, it's obvious you're pining for the "free" Bortas pretty hard...but next to nobody else is missing that-look at the posts that aren't me-they're talking Escorts more than Cruisers, hell, more people're talking 'big BoP" than Cruisers with the Bortasque seating arrangement.

There's not a big movement on the boards (I lurk here a LOT) looking for yet-another-Battlecruiser (unless it's a K'Tinga or another Vor'cha variant, a few have talked Negh'var...) so look at your market.

Cryptic's a business, they are, in the end, in the business of making money to keep the lights on, pay the bills, and pay dividends to their investors.

The demand, the "Market" isn't in yet-another-cruiser. Further, while eight weapons bays makes YOU drool, 30k hull on a turn rate of ten isn't any better than 50K hull on a turn rate of 3, there are damn good reasons Cryptic's miserly on passing out ships with Universal slots that aren't BoPs-they're a revenue source, and intended to be relatively rare vessels you either buy, or buy keys to get.

This cuts into the money-making, and that's the hard business side. On the demand side, we have a hole in the roster, it's not filled with the Gorn ships, or the Carriers, nor is it filled adequately by the Bird of Preys we currently have.

The B'Rel refit shows that a BoP can have fixed equipment, and they are increasingly visible over Qo'Nos (as in player controlled B'rels), in Ker'rat, and in both STF and PvP play-it sold well enough that it was tapped over the Hegh'ta for a Fleetship version, which generated quite a storm of discussion when the stats were unveiled-which is a sign of what we call "interest".

MOST of the commentary on the B'rel (fleet) came down to "It should have had four SCIENCE slots, not Engineering slots". criticism is a sign of interest, and the long-standing complaint about KDF lacking proper science vessels has been loud enough to get the Varanus tagged for T3 Fleetship status-means the devs think it'll sell fleet modules.

And it has. I've seen a few-not many, but a few in the Fleet Actions like Red alert, Blockade, etc.

Statistically, the Varanus isn't a very good ship, and the Fleet Varanus is still not as good as some of the FREE Federation sci ships one tier lower.

This is the BASIS of MY counter proposal of building a Science ship in a Bop frame-most KDF Scis spend most of their career between 21 and 50 in Birds of Prey, it is the default for those players until level 50 or so, and it's the default for silver members (non subs) because it's cheap and can handle the seating-and BoPs are fairly popular, and everyone knows which ones are good.

Now, a "Science" K'Vort based not on a mutated Cruiser with fantasy seating, but on the idea of working from what we've had to what would evolve under the strain of the times, we get:

Hull:26000 to 30,000 (tougher than a Hegh'ta)
Shield: .99 to 1.3
Impulse mod: .2
turn: 14 to 17 (slower than a Hegh'ta)
+15 to Aux (minor difference-most BoP have +15 to weps)
Battlecloak

Seating:
Cdr Universal
LTC Universal
LT Universal
Lt Universal (seating identical to the Hegh'ta, B'rel refit, and Hoh'sus)

Consoles:
3 Engineering
4 Science
3 Tactical (basis: the B'rel Fleet has 4 engineering, Hoh'sus has 4 tactical.)

Integral abilities:
Subsystem Targeting and Sensor Analysis

Weps layout:
4 forward
2 Aft (Standard Bird of Prey layout, 6 weapons like every other science ship in the game)

Crew: 200 (more bodies than a Hegh'ta, but fewer than a Cruiser.)

In-game role: Electronic Warfare/Heavy Reconaissance/Task Force coordination

Remember, this is from a universe where the Federation's using Cloaking too-the KDF in such a universe would have to be utterly incompetent NOT to develop detection countermeasures once the Feds took the gloves off, and it would further make sense as an 'escorting vessel' to a Flagship-you can't STOP a Galaxy Dready if you can't SEE him.

Final bit: with the movement to giving the Feds Uni consoles and carriers (including the Vesta), tit-for-tat seems appropriate in the KDF developing Science Vessels based on chassis already in use BY science/recon crews...and technically, such a ship would be classed as a "light CRUISER" in public documents, it's "obviously" not a..a...'RAIDER'...after all, and with only six weapons mounts, it's obviously not suitable as a replacement for the Raptor classes.

(oh, and the wing-span? antennas and sensors may need to be mounted outboard of em and other radiation generating equipment-like engines. That much surface area gives a pretty decent array when you bother to think about it.)
"when you're out of Birds of Prey, you're out of ships."
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 245
# 43
12-24-2012, 11:48 PM
Quote:
so...you want the seating of the Veteran Destroyer, (that IS an LTC universal, right?) on a FREE cruiser...and you don't see this as a problem re: the cruisers we have to pay cashy-money for.
It's also the seating on a ship that was free last year, so I'm not sure what you're getting at.

Also, the seating on the Peghqu' is very different..The Lt.Commander universal is the ONLY similarity..

Quote:
we've GOT the intermediate Cruiser covered; it's the Tor Kaht. YES, you have to buy (or grind Dil and convert to zen) Fleet Modules for it, but the role's covered.
The Fleet Tor'Kaht is hardly intermediate at anything. It's probably the single best ship in the game currently, discounting the atrocity that is the bugship.

As it sits, right now, your best option upon hitting endgame, if you don't want to spend money, is to keep on using your tier 4 ship...

Quote:
and you want to give it to everyone who'll sit through a ten minute mission-to use your own words.
They gave a "better" ship to everyone who sat thru a 10 minute mission last year, so why not?

Klingons need science rigs. We get that. Why make a dedicated attack ship a science rig, tho? That makes no sense at all. Give KDF real science rigs and stop trying to fill the niche with ships that shouldn't be doing it anyway.

How much 'science' have we ever actually seen a Bird of Prey do?

Let's give KDF some real science rigs, like the Jach'eng or the Fek'lhr. How hard would it really be to give Klingons real science ships instead of trying to gimp ships for science that clearly shouldn't be fulfilling scientific roles?

Quote:
3 Tactical (basis: the B'rel Fleet has 4 engineering, Hoh'sus has 4 tactical.)
And there's the whole problem. You want this free ship to fill a role that not even $20.00 fleet ships can fill.

Like I said, if they want to release a pack later that has a Sci/Eng/Tac versions, like they did the Bortas, Odyssey and no doubt will do with the Ambassador, so be it. Great. I'll welcome that. But the free one shouldn't be comparable in any way to $20.00 fleet ships...

Last edited by wunjee; 12-25-2012 at 12:04 AM.
Captain
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 2,785
# 44
12-25-2012, 12:09 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by wunjee View Post
It's also the seating on a ship that was free last year, so I'm not sure what you're getting at.

Also, the seating on the Peghqu' is very different..The Lt.Commander universal is the ONLY similarity..



The Fleet Tor'Kaht is hardly intermediate at anything. It's probably the single best ship in the game currently....



They gave a "better" ship to everyone who sat thru a 10 minute mission last year, so why not?

Klingons need science rigs. We get that. Why make a dedicated attack ship a science rig, tho? That makes no sense at all. Give KDF real science rigs and stop trying to fill the niche with ships that shouldn't be doing it anyway.

How much 'science' have we ever actually seen a Bird of Prey do?
1)I could ask the same question of you-why make a Cruiser out of a dedicated recon ship? (the BoPs we see the most of, are recon/strike craft for behind-the-lines work re; the entire Dominion War season of DS9 for starters). It's easier to retrofit the K'Tinga line to produce more K'Tingas with thicker skin and bigger power conduits, than to scale up Bird of Prey stats, armor it, add weapons mounts, lose manueverability and still fall short of an effective cruiser, while adding to the vulnerable surface area with surface area that serves no mechanical or practical (or battle) purpose. KDF ships tend, post 2360 or so, to have drawn inward and thicker as models progressed-you're proposing a reversal of that trend based on one episode of TNG, where the budget made the SFX people sub in BoP models for Cruiser models because they didn't have enough Cruiser models made to keep up with the shooting schedule.

2)concession to the game here; MOST players using KDF sci toons run around in Bird of Prey to make use of their sci abilities. A few bite down to buy a carrier (usually Orion) or load into a Vo'Quv at level 40, with the Kar'fi being the purchase-it-ride-of-choice at Level 50...unless you want to use all your sci powers, in which case your choice is a Vo'Quv or nothing most of the time unless you want a Gorn ship-which is relatively rare.

So I end up seeing a LOT of BoPs doing Sci...and if you're watching, so would you.

and the conversion fits-a hell of a lot easier than trying to supersize the dies on the BoP production line to build a true BC does-the ship's already electronics intensive thanks to its reliance on Cloaking, means the EPS runs are probably super-sized compared to other ships of that mass range, and even the Klingons eventually improve their materials sciences, so that's a lot of power you can use to run an EW rig in a relatively cheap platform suitable for issue to the sector of the KDF that sees the least respect-that being the Sciences.

Further, the improved Cloak seen in the movies was tested...on a BoP, not a cruiser, nor a proper Escort-there's a reason-BoPs are likely less expensive per tonne than proper Cruisers are, so it's likely to be more "traditional" to build an EW bird off a Bird of Prey, than off a Cruiser (which, per Klingon thinking, has better things to be doing!)

Finally, it's the role of a Sci ship: Sci ships are HUNTERS, first and foremost, in a culture like the Empire, they're the kind of ship you'd SEND to find the enemy's trail, to detect his hiding places and hidden weapons, to pursue and identify, harass and delay, in a timeline wherein the KDF is facing a Federation that has abandoned the Accords and is fitting cloak to warships, the likely direction is to base your advanced hunter on the existing hunter-i.e. your science ship on the ships you already use for reconaissance and special-forces missions, aka the Bird of Prey.
"when you're out of Birds of Prey, you're out of ships."
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 245
# 45
12-25-2012, 12:19 AM
Quote:
1)I could ask the same question of you-why make a Cruiser out of a dedicated recon ship?
Because that's what they called it in that episode? Not once, but twice. Including once by Picard..

I don't care about special effects, or model budgets, or any of that nonsense. I know that in an alternate universe, they called the ship a battlecruiser. And it's this alternate universe that we're highlighting in the event. Therefore, the ship should be what it was in that episode. A battlecruiser..

Quote:
2)concession to the game here; MOST players using KDF sci toons run around in Bird of Prey to make use of their sci abilities.
Because there's no better option. There should be, but there isn't. "That's how things are" is no reason for propagating bad game mechanics.

Quote:
So I end up seeing a LOT of BoPs doing Sci...and if you're watching, so would you.
See my above post.

If KDF had dedicated science rigs, people probably wouldn't be using BoPs, which are classified ingame as raiders, for science duties. Especially when they aren't really that good at it because of a general lack of consoles..

KDF needs a dedicated Sci rig with 4/5 sci consoles, not a BoP with 3 sci consoles pretending to be a science rig. And adding another one of those isn't going to fix the problem.

Quote:
Further, the improved Cloak seen in the movies was tested...on a BoP, not a cruiser
Maybe because it--hold on for this one--wasn't government funded and a BoP would've been cheaper to not only obtain, but man, then a cruiser? We weren't talking about a KDF-run experiment. So they likely used what they could afford/spare/maintain.

Farmer John uses a Mazda Pick-up to haul dirt instead of a dump truck. Therefore, one can conclude Mazda Pick-ups are better at hauling dirt then dump trucks..

KDF would be government-funded. In fact, we hear in ST VI that 3/4 of the Klingon economy is dedicated to the military...

Quote:
Finally, it's the role of a Sci ship: Sci ships are HUNTERS, first and foremost, in a culture like the Empire
Good job making that up. Too bad it has no basis in the canon at all.

Give KDF real science rigs. Bird of Preys are not science rigs, nor should they be.

Last edited by wunjee; 12-25-2012 at 12:31 AM.
Captain
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 2,785
# 46
12-25-2012, 01:05 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by wunjee View Post
Because that's what they called it in that episode?



If KDF had dedicated science rigs, people probably wouldn't be using BoPs, which are classified ingame as raiders, for science duties. Especially when they aren't really that good at it because of a general lack of consoles..

KDF needs a dedicated Sci rig with 4/5 sci consoles, not a BoP with 3 sci consoles pretending to be a science rig. And adding another one of those isn't going to fix the problem.



Maybe because it--hold on for this one--wasn't government funded and a BoP would've been cheaper to not only obtain, but man, then a cruiser? We weren't talking about a KDF-run experiment. So they likely used what they could afford/spare/maintain.

Farmer John uses a Mazda Pick-up to haul dirt instead of a dump truck. Therefore, one can conclude Mazda Pick-ups are better at hauling dirt then dump trucks..

KDF would be government-funded. In fact, we hear in ST VI that 3/4 of the Klingon economy is dedicated to the military...



Good job making that up. Too bad it has no basis in the canon at all.

Give KDF real science rigs. Bird of Preys are not science rigs, nor should they be.
Warrior culture, geared for war-and there's more than the DS9 evidence-ST3, what was that Bird of Prey doing? Oh, yeah, intelligence work.

There are 4 ship classes in the Federation:
Cruiser
Carrier
Escort
Science ship

There are 4 standard classes in the KDF;
Battlecruiser
Raptor(escort)
Carrier
Bird of Prey

From the START the VERY FIRST view of a ship with the BoP layout, it's doing Recon work, independent operation with a small crew behind enemy lines.

If they add another class to the KDF, don't you think the Fed side is going to howl bloody murder about the imbalance-just as they tantrumed until they got Carriers?

I'm looking at this mainly from the business angle, you're looking at it mainly from the POV of a fan of Cruisers and a fan of TNG, to the point you won't accept what the show's writers and producers said about why some inconsistencies made it to the small screen.

Business-wise, it makes a hell of a lot more sense to convert a BoP-looking ship into a Bird of Prey with some special ability, than it does to generate another cruiser that probably won't sell after the initial roll-out. We're ALREADY a small market proportional to the Feds, you're asking for a vanity-item. By contrast, the 'better ships' you mentioned-the Oddy still sells, but people aren't buying the Bort, and with good reason-it takes a special kind of self-hatred to spend fifty bucks on a ship with that many things wrong with it, when you have better options available for a lot less. Given the incorporation of Inertia to the game's physics engine, the Bort went from being a 'superthreat' to a bad joke-a bus with flat tyres and bad braking.

What you're proposing isn't any better-a BC with the hull of an escort, no turn advantage, and a seating arrangement that will make it hurt anywhere but ISE because of the hull numbers, that looks like a more manueverable and useful ship, and frankly, your inclusion of a CDR Uni console puts it in direct competition with better designs that already exist.

so where's the profit for Cryptic in your proposal? at least MINE includes the ability to sell it once the event's over, with a good likelihood it will actually see a purchaser's dollar, because it's NEEDED, and it doesn't contribute controversy to do it-unlike your Cruiser, which is redundant in the face of existing ships both free, and paid.

When you look to the lower-tier KDF Cruisers, the weapons are canted forward, not balanced until you get to the hard limit of four forward weapons. the pattern should hold for KDF sci ships-which have six weapons, the same number as Fed sci vessels, in a layout of four forward to rear where Feds try to balance fore and rear armament on theirs (Fed sci ships go three front/three rear).

This preserves factional separation of technologies-if you want a 'globe' layout for your weps, you go Fed, but the Klinks are reputed to be aggressors, so they'd tend to mount more foreward than aft with their armament, even on a "Science" ship...which they wouldn't CALL a "Science" ship. Not even in Treaty talks or propoganda.

The Feds have a "Reconaissance Science vessel"-do you think that name was an accident? The KDF demonstrably uses the BoP for reconaissance duties, duties it is well suited for, meaning that the recon staff at KDF are probably very familiar with the Bird of Prey structure and layout.

Historical example from the real world: in 1873 the U.S. army adopted a breech-loading cartridge rifle on the Allin pattern as used in their 1866 rifle-musket conversions, in spite of better actions, including Repeaters, being commonly available since 1864. The reason for this adoption, was that the allin system was similar enough in looks and function to the muzzle-loaders that the Americans had just fought their civil war with from 1860 to 1865. Sharps and Spencer went out of business due to this-in spite of the Spencer carbine's showing as a cavalry arm during the war, and the Sharps' deserved fame as an accurate rifle of robust construction. MILITARY establishments tend to be solidly conservative when it comes to adopting new innovations.

The KDF has used the K'Tinga in various forms since the 22nd century, right up to the in-game present 23rd century, this is similar to the idea of the USN going and breaking out the predreadnoughts of the Spanish American war, updating them, and building new ones for service, or keeping the Iowa class after 1996. They're EXTREMELY conservative with innovations there-the proof is in the roster of hulls. A grudging acceptance of the need for a dedicated Sci/recon vessel would push the KDF to adopt one-but it's more likely to be based on what they're already using for the recon/intel role: the BoP, because of Bureaucratic Inertia, maybe, or inter-agency rivalries, or just plain "I don't want something new" (in 1860 that was the attitude of the QM corp general on the Union side-he insisted that breechloaders were wasteful and muzzle-loaders good enough.)

upsizing a BoP into a full on Cruiser makes as much sense as putting jet engines on a sopwith camel, and the ships from various Fanon and SFB games really don't enter in here, and shouldn't.

A SciBoP fits the conditions of the GAME, is likely to SELL, and may in fact sell rather WELL, even in a small market like the KDF player base. Another Cruiser that doesn't do anything really better than teh existing cruisers, but probably requires 25 to 50 bucks to buy? not so much.
"when you're out of Birds of Prey, you're out of ships."
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 245
# 47
12-25-2012, 04:59 AM
Quote:
I'm looking at this mainly from the business angle
It's a free ship. There IS no business angle. As I said, if they want to go and sell it as a pack-ship like they did the Odyssey and Bortas and more then likely will do with the Ambassador, dandy. I'm talking about the FREE one..

Quote:
Business-wise, it makes a hell of a lot more sense to convert a BoP-looking ship into a Bird of Prey with some special ability, than it does to generate another cruiser that probably won't sell after the initial roll-out.
It's a free ship. Whatever they do with the free one will have no bearing on what they do with the C-store pack ships. Again, see the Odyssey and Bortas, which are very different as c-store ships then they were as free ships..

Quote:
your inclusion of a CDR Uni console puts it in direct competition with better designs that already exist.
Bolded the part that matters.

Direct competition with better designs?

If there are better designs, there is no competition, direct or indirect..

How many ships did the free Bortas obsolete?

Quote:
so where's the profit for Cryptic in your proposal?
There is no profit because it's a free ship...

Quote:
at least MINE includes the ability to sell it once the event's over,
And if they do sell it when the event's over, it'll likely be in a "Tac/Sci/Eng" 3-ship pack just like the Odyssey and Bortas...so what the free ship is will have absolutely no bearing on what the bundle ship will be, assuming there is one..

Quote:
upsizing a BoP into a full on Cruiser makes as much sense as putting jet engines on a sopwith camel
Except they did it in the show, to pretty good effect presumably considering the Federation was losing the war and said "Sopwith Camerls with jet engines" presumably destroyed the "battleship" Enterprise-D..

I've said it at least 3 times now. If they want to make a sci-version of the ship as you envision it for the $50.00 3-ship-pack like they have done the Odyssey, Bortas and likely will do the Ambassador, awesome. That's prime work. Good job Cryptic..

But the free one doesn't need to be some half-assed science ship "just because KDF doesn't have one"...
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 3,008
# 48
12-25-2012, 07:46 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by wunjee View Post
Except they did it in the show, to pretty good effect presumably considering the Federation was losing the war and said "Sopwith Camerls with jet engines" presumably destroyed the "battleship" Enterprise-D..
"They" did it on the show because they didn't have the budget to make a new Klingon battlecruiser for that episode. When the Vor'cha model was produced in season 4, the K'vort was never mentioned again.
Starfleet Veteran
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 78
# 49
12-25-2012, 08:44 AM
Bug/Temp Destroyer/Breen Cruiser/Advanced Escort - Fleet

^

Copy & Past, and no, I don't care about the cloak if it means a lower shield mod. I won't say no to SC or BC, but if it means they have to fiddle around with the stats/layout I'd rather they just leave well enough alone. We have enough tinderbox feather weights already.

While a new skin would be nice I love my T5 bop skin & would love to be able to fly that skin around without feeling gimped as hell while doing so. BC & Uni flexibility comes at too high a price for the Std Bop. I see no need to make the same mistake again.

As a final note, I don't care if I have to "pay" for it. If that's what it takes to get a half decent BOP layout with those T5 skins attached then so be it.

Last edited by r37; 12-25-2012 at 08:47 AM.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 245
# 50
12-25-2012, 12:52 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by futurepastnow View Post
"They" did it on the show because they didn't have the budget to make a new Klingon battlecruiser for that episode. When the Vor'cha model was produced in season 4, the K'vort was never mentioned again.
DS9: Penumbra. IKS Koraga.
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