Captain
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 3,362
# 61
12-27-2012, 09:36 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by gulberat View Post
The TNG ones aren't samurai--well, Worf is, but the rest are Vikings. Sto-Vo-Kor is basically Valhalla, and when you see the council hall, you'd swear it was Heorot. Personally I like to think there are two different Klingon "religions"...the more samurai one that Worf follows and that you see on Boreth (the cloned Kahless seems to represent this religion too), and the more Viking one that is now followed by the majority of Klingons.

The TOS Klingons, though...I agree that I liked them better. In a lot of ways, they are what the Cardassians became in TNG and DS9. If you want sophistication in the modern shows, that's where to look.
Interesting theory, I like it
Captain
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 1,117
# 62
12-27-2012, 09:48 AM
While the definition of "religion" is iffy, given the Klingons' claim that they killed their gods, to me there does seem to be a schism in Klingon society when it comes to notions of honor vs. glory. And I think that's where the division really is--the "samurai" look at honor in bushido-like terms as a strict code to be followed regardless of whether it brings one victory, but the "Vikings" speak of honor but they really mean glory...winning at all costs. If you look at Martok's behavior, drinking over the corpses in Central Command, it really looks like something you'd expect to see in Beowulf. But I suspect Worf wouldn't have done that; he seems like the type who would at least distinguish between military targets and civilian noncombatants who were likely also in the building.

(In all seriousness, when I had to study Beowulf in school, I just looked at the characters as TNG Klingons and suddenly it made a whole lot of sense why they said and did what they did.)

As to how Worf ended up following the "samurai religion" instead of the "Viking" one--a lot of his education about what it means to be Klingon came from books...books that I'd bet were not always up to date, in the Federation, with the latest cultural developments.
Lieutenant
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 87
# 63
12-27-2012, 10:55 AM
Bajorans , Not only are the religion nuts they are also hippys and more arrogant than Humans, Cardassians and even Vulcans sometimes. They are that 'dickish' they make you sometimes want Dukat to win even when he has gone mental four or five times over. They also have it in there heads in DS9 that they are one of the most important powers in the alpha and even gamma quadrant , most of the tech they have is all down to the Cardassians.
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 125
# 64
12-27-2012, 11:13 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by gulberat View Post
While the definition of "religion" is iffy, given the Klingons' claim that they killed their gods, to me there does seem to be a schism in Klingon society when it comes to notions of honor vs. glory. And I think that's where the division really is--the "samurai" look at honor in bushido-like terms as a strict code to be followed regardless of whether it brings one victory, but the "Vikings" speak of honor but they really mean glory...winning at all costs. If you look at Martok's behavior, drinking over the corpses in Central Command, it really looks like something you'd expect to see in Beowulf. But I suspect Worf wouldn't have done that; he seems like the type who would at least distinguish between military targets and civilian noncombatants who were likely also in the building.

(In all seriousness, when I had to study Beowulf in school, I just looked at the characters as TNG Klingons and suddenly it made a whole lot of sense why they said and did what they did.)

As to how Worf ended up following the "samurai religion" instead of the "Viking" one--a lot of his education about what it means to be Klingon came from books...books that I'd bet were not always up to date, in the Federation, with the latest cultural developments.
That's a good point.

I'd like to add that Worf, being essentially an expatriate, had some rather romantic views about his own people. I always thought he adopted the 'romantic' version of what Klingons are supposed to be. For one, it seems to fit a more noble image. For another, it fits better with the values he'd been raised with in the Federation.

Might also have to factor in that he was also the Klingon equivalent of a nobleman and with it comes a certain set of behaviors.

Therefore I submit this. I think Worf tried to follow an ideal Klingon image and kinda made a few wrong conclusions. It shows when he actually has to hang out with his people. He knows all the rituals and how to act in specific social situations. However, he falls flat on his face when he has to try and relax with his fellow Klingons in a more casual setting. When he acts like the ideal Klingon, to other Klingons it looks like he has a painstick up his... well, you know.

It's like reading stories about Knights and Chivalry, then looking into the history to find out that Knights weren't really all that Chivalrous.
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 11,077
# 65
12-27-2012, 11:24 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by gulberat View Post
While the definition of "religion" is iffy, given the Klingons' claim that they killed their gods, to me there does seem to be a schism in Klingon society when it comes to notions of honor vs. glory. And I think that's where the division really is--the "samurai" look at honor in bushido-like terms as a strict code to be followed regardless of whether it brings one victory, but the "Vikings" speak of honor but they really mean glory...winning at all costs. If you look at Martok's behavior, drinking over the corpses in Central Command, it really looks like something you'd expect to see in Beowulf. But I suspect Worf wouldn't have done that; he seems like the type who would at least distinguish between military targets and civilian noncombatants who were likely also in the building.

(In all seriousness, when I had to study Beowulf in school, I just looked at the characters as TNG Klingons and suddenly it made a whole lot of sense why they said and did what they did.)

As to how Worf ended up following the "samurai religion" instead of the "Viking" one--a lot of his education about what it means to be Klingon came from books...books that I'd bet were not always up to date, in the Federation, with the latest cultural developments.
Quote:
Originally Posted by onenonlydrock View Post
It's like reading stories about Knights and Chivalry, then looking into the history to find out that Knights weren't really all that Chivalrous.
I think this is the best way to explain it, and it does make a lot of instances in TNG and DS9 make sense. For example there was Edward the Black Prince who was known as the Flower of Earthly Chivalry, and executed men, women, and children when he captured towns.
http://i1151.photobucket.com/albums/o633/centersolace/189cux9khvl6ojpg_zpsca7ccff0.jpg

So inhumane superweapons, mass murder, and canon nonsense is okay, but speedos are too much for some people.
Captain
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 3,362
# 66
12-27-2012, 01:40 PM
I agree, Worf's perspective of 'Klingon Life' is somewhat skewed due to his Federation upbringing, and would also agree that although the status of a house can fluctuate within a single generation, during his early childhood, Worf's would have been a privileged/noble upbringing. It's no wonder that he is so awkward around Klingon boisterousness, as to the values instilled in his childhood, it's 'common behavior' which is beneath his dignity.
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 125
# 67
12-27-2012, 01:45 PM
Great... and now I have another image of Worf.

You know those white suburbanite kids who try too hard to be 'gangsta'?

Yeah... that's Worf. Trying too hard to be Klingon. *LOL*
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 11,757
# 68
12-27-2012, 01:54 PM
Wadi, Kes species, and the Kazon.. Space hillbillies with bad hair.
Rihannsu
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 12,550
# 69
12-27-2012, 02:37 PM
Quote:
It's like reading stories about Knights and Chivalry, then looking into the history to find out that Knights weren't really all that Chivalrous.
It all depended on what king they served. Most kings... didn't care about chivalry. Their knights bahaved accordingly.
HAIL HYDRA!

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Lieutenant
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 97
# 70
12-27-2012, 03:53 PM
Any race that the writers make talk in an odd fashion, with the aim of making us sympathise with them find them endearing. Am thinking in particular of the Terra Novans and the Vori (the guerillas that captured and brainwashed Chakotay) - who irritate the heck out of me. The Pakleds on the other hand are a good deconstruction of this.

Similarly, any 'noble savage/primitive' type race that the writers want us to like - as it inevitably becomes a clumsy morality tale. I am thinking in particular of the Boraalans, and the ones from one of the penultimate episodes of Voyager, where Chakotay and Seven crash and end up living with some stone age types, who eventually have to be saved from the evils of education and modern medicine.
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