Survivor of Romulus
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 4,593
# 21
12-27-2012, 09:16 AM
I have seen an offer in zone chat of payment to "test " a mission and take "45 mins +"
Lieutenant
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 72
# 22
12-27-2012, 09:18 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by naharikajal View Post
It's a shame and definitively an anathema to the spirit of the Foundry!

To be honest I didn't hear about this mission before so I was just curious about the ratings. After reading them I became angry and sad... It's full of 5 stars and named one of the best missions that exist *sigh* What a slap in the face of every "serious" author who spends hours and hours in developing a storyline or whatever...

I really hope it will be banned soon.
Federation missions that are copied/pasted and called Klingon missions are a slap in the face to KDF players. And yet that's what we're given.

Console clickers, I'd agree were an abomination. But this is not. It takes time. There is effort involved. Not a lot, but some.

I did Chart/Explore the B'Tran Cluster every day for months during S6. An awful lot of those missions were...Kill 5 groups. You could walk to the area and go AFK for 2 minutes. Walk to the next area, 5 seconds away and go AFK again. Repeat 3 more times and you're done. Is that really so different from this mission?
Rihannsu
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 644
# 23
12-27-2012, 10:19 AM
Oh for crying out loud, does everyone in this game whine about something? PvPers whine about balance, PvE'ers whine about DPS races, and the Foundry authors whine about no one getting their works of art.

Then again, I'm whining about the people who whine, so I guess I'm no better.

But to the question at hand. First, I played the KDF version of this mission (I actually think there is more than one, since in the one I played, some of the enemy feds got around the barrier to me and started shooting me). I could have gone around and helped my BOFFS, but I decided to play it like the mission said and just let them do the work. It was kinda fun actually, made me feel like an actual captain who actually sent someone else to do the work. Kinda makes me wish there was a good way to do this with the cryptic missions, just get to near an encounter and then send the boffs forward to do the job. Anyway, I had fun, so I gave it a good rating. I never saw anything about a five star rating had to be for great plotline and stunning special effects. And I will say that if I come across a mission that did have those things and no significant problems otherwise, I'd give it 5 stars, no problem.

Second, I have nothing against "story" missions, I'd love to play them, and time permitting, I will. But that's the problem, I don't have time. I have a kid, a wife, a job, stuff to do. Most of the time, I can only play STO for an hour or two a day, and I hardly think I'm alone in that. So, I have to play what is going to get me the most bang for my buck, and something that doesnt' require all of my attenction, just in case I have to run and get my kid, or my wife wants something, or I have to do the dishes or mow the lawn, etc, etc, etc, as the King would say.Now, if my stars align and I have a free hour or two, maybe I will try a "story" mission, I've got a list of ones I want to try actually, and if they're good, I'll give it a 5 star. But for day to day stuff, I'm going to play something like this, cause I'm saving up for a couple of ships and fleet stuff too, and that all adds up you know?

By the way, if anyone here knows of a good mission, please let me know. I may not get to it for a while, but I will add it to my list. In game mail is @Malkarris, good for both FED and KDF. And even if you say it takes thirty minutes, will I'm still putting it off until I have time, because I'd like to not speed read my way through it.

Third, to all those crying exploit, exactly how is this an exploit? Because its a basically do nothing mission? Well, that's probably so, however, an exploit means I'm getting something out of this that I wouldn't be usually. Its not like I can log on to another character in STO to do something while my BOFFs kill stuff. I have to stay in game and looking at the screen, just in case I need to do something (see the leakers I menctioned above). I can't do doffing while I wait for the mission to complete, and even if the mission takes less that 30 minutes, I can't do another one and get the wrapper's reward until that timer has run down. Quite honestly, if they were going to reduce the timer to 30 minutes anyway, I don't understand the point of the missions qualification being like this. Just make a mission that has you load four rooms, with all the lag that would take at least 15 minutes, even if all your ar doign is running from one end of the room to another to click a console (I might make one like that, run around ESD, clicking consoles, like a race, that would be fun in a group, if you could make it like that). I'll also add in the fact that most space ESTFs give the same amount of base dilithium and are designed to be completed in 15 minutes, with a good team. And with a good team, you can do eight of them, which also fills up your dilithium quote for the day in only about 2 hours, maybe 3 given that ground is a bit longer. Or just play ISE, CSE, and KASE, and maybe KAGE if you need a bit more time until the timer on ISE runs out, and repeat.

And hey, what about Cryptics mission to get the Breen ship? That takes what, five minutes, to get 40 pictures? Think about how much dilithium it would take to do that.

Fourth, let look at what Cryptic has said about all this stuff. In some ask Cryptic or dev blog, the D man himself said that what they are shooting for is for the average player to make his 8,000 dilithium cap in four hours. The daily officer report mission gives 960 dilithium, and can be repeated once every half hour, which comes to a bit less than 8000 in 4 hours. So at this point, it looks like working as intended. Now, could this be better and have some sort of sliding scale so that however long or short a foundry mission is, that is how much dilithium you would be rewarded, and one four hours long would just give you about 8,000, yeah, that would be nice, but I don't think they have the tech necessary to track that and not reward players for just sitting in an empty room for 4 hours.

And finally, fifth, get use to it. I've written fanfiction (which is basically what this stuff is), so I know already what you guys seem to need to learn. You craft this wonderful piece of work, your baby, and set it loose in the world, confident that it will take the people by storm, and in five minutes, ten people completely trash it and everyone else seems to ignore it. And of course, you want to defend your baby, which is perfect in your eyes. And so you take a course of action, calling for nerfs and what not. Well, welcome to being an author. If you're looking for job satification, don't come here. Treasure the players who do come to your missions and play them and give you a 5 star rating, and as for the rest, learn to roll with the punches. I'd be willing to bet real money that if Cryptic's missions were put up for the officer report rewards, the only one anyone would play is "Spin the Wheel." Of course, it probably wouldn't qualify since there is no one to shoot.

Even if they banned this one mission, and all the other kill X number of guys missions, no one is going to go flocking to your three hour epic. They'll go back to STFs and fleet actions, because that's where the marks and dilithium is.

And of course, all this is IMHO, and that with a fiver will get you a good cup of coffee. But I hope some of you will at least take a minute to breath and think about what I said.
Joined September 2011
Nouveau riche LTS member
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 260
# 24
12-27-2012, 11:03 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by malkarris View Post
Really long logical argument

So I read this, twice. Well... While it isn't the preferred method of foundry mission many authors want to see popular, I totally see your points...

I may not play such missions but I can't fault those that do given your argument.
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 532
# 25
12-27-2012, 11:12 AM
You know, considering we are on the forefront of this in the mmo community in a way it is kind of exciting. Not saying we're the first to do it, but, we're the first to do it in this way prepping up for Neverwinter and other works.

I don't think any one thing has caused this, anything overly predictable. Sure in hindsight EVERYTHING is obvious but:

The game starts off with severely limited story content, near no end game but PvP. Then we get the STFs, which are difficult to play even for some fleets at the time and see very little players through. We get diplomacy (*snicker*) and exploration, but it is... well... scan 5 things... destroy Borg Looking for relics of their 3rd Dynasty...

We get the foundry as something, near anything, we can do to tell some stories and give a little story content in addition to the season updates which, at the time, were mostly just 5 new episodes.

Then we switch over to better endgame and the different rewards for F2P. The exploration marks that we all farmed gets replaced by DL. DL gets put everywhere. Suddenly there is something we get. Something more than 5 exploration marks, or other random marks that are... lets face it, worthless. Suddenly there is worth. Suddenly we get worth with tips. There is an option now, since time in game is worth something, that players get a little more reward than just story. As there is actually things to do or that require time in game they need some reward for time spent now. But, as always, players realize there is an easy way to get stuff based off the old system. They brake it, some better than others. (Battle Royal for fed is not new and that's okay with me, and I didn't mind Nagus dailies because they were polished an simple ways to do it) There are still poor clickers, everyone sees the groups outside of the ESD transporter room. But, they were only the few that were needed.

Now, we get a system that works for the purpose of evenly giving rewards for individual foundry missions as if they are STFs or Fleet Actions or any other aspects of content. Like the old double down 2000 or so DL rewards from Exploration (a hang over from before) the old system in place just to give something is changed. The old loophole is closed, and congress debates until the fiscal cli-... err... people are suddenly upended as the system isn't as easy to get the same rewards. There it has been so long, what it was seemed to be designed as a simple way to get DL is removed. Many people thought it was as intended that way. Now, as it shifts to even rewarding there are the growing pains as they try to get it back the way it was. In doing that, we're flooded with missions attempting to make that change. Fill that hole. It's a lot harder, there are a lot of failures or jumping in to make something that works since the one or two that were really easy aren't there anymore...

Our current end result, lists of mission that either only tailor to (or have failed tailoring through) a vast majority of players who aren't interested in playing the content, but perhaps getting the rewards or avoiding the time spend in other aspects of content (which, I still don't understand. People who say they don't have the time to put in to the grind are now needing to spend 15 minutes at least in a mission to get the rewards. Aren't those the same times and rewards for the other content in game that takes 15 minutes? I can respect you don't have a lot of time as others for grinding in game, but, you're still spending the same amount of time in game.)

Our current state at this point is lists of missions attempting to make that easy gain again, but limits out near all content for which the reward system is being tailored to provide to.

The progress to this point is convoluted, but when STO launched it was awesome space combat. That's it. All of it. I mean, ground, sure... but ground pre S4 was... painful. This has been a wide changing road that has caused problems as it went. If cryptic had never offered the three mission daily this would no doubt be calmer now, but, there would still be some problems. And they added those things so that players in the system are no longer punished for playing foundry with their game time. Looking back, at least we have seen changes. Big changes. Thats a sign of life and growth I love to have in an MMO.

I don't mind these missions existing, but, I think it is a problem that these missions are blocking honest content, content that only has 33 plays after 1 year, or 340 after 2.


TL : DR

We got here down a long road of evolving game changes, which has resulted with the mission list crowded by ones designed to be most efficient for getting reward mission rewards.
If changes show anything, it's not going to last so long as work is still done on it.
Nothing wrong with the new grinder missions if they put polish on it and don't block the Story Based content the reward was designed for.

Last edited by designationxr377; 12-27-2012 at 11:15 AM.
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 2,491
# 26
12-27-2012, 11:17 AM
I think it's true that we are writing and designing missions for an entirely different kind of Trek game, rather than what this game has become. These missions that annoy us or sadden us are quite frankly more in-line with what STO has become post S6.


Is it pretty? No, but neither are most of the Cryptic missions that a. have no story and b. cater to the LCD.
Rihannsu
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 644
# 27
12-27-2012, 11:23 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ocp001 View Post
So I read this, twice. Well... While it isn't the preferred method of foundry mission many authors want to see popular, I totally see your points...

I may not play such missions but I can't fault those that do given your argument.
Mostly off subject, but thank you for this reply, not because you agreed with my points, but that you took the time to consider them.

More on topic, I wouldn't mind seeing those story type missions be more popular, I just don't see it happening with what I know of internet culture.

And just to put in another two bits, because I'm chatty today, I think more people might try story missions if they were shorter. Considering the audience, and writing for it, will probably get you more feedback and plays, though I can't say any of it will be what you want. In this case, an author might consider the audience to want something short and sweet, that doesn't require a lot of brain power. Something that comes to mind is the current crop of sit coms on TV, like Friends, or How I met your Mother. Or given the amout of action needed for a foundry mission to qualify, maybe some action cartoon or anime would be a better guide. In either case, something in the 22 minute range, plus commercials. Going more with the cartoon angle, that would be an opening fight or conflict, some dialogue to explaine the fight and continue with what needs to be done, and the the grand battle at the end to form Voltron and finish off the bad guy of the week. Will this be deep and meaningful? Maybe not, but consider your audience, what are they looking for? From the complaints here, Dilithium. I doubt any of them would complain with they got their dilithium with saving a pretty space princess.
Joined September 2011
Nouveau riche LTS member
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 148
# 28
12-27-2012, 12:04 PM
Originally posted by malkarris
And finally, fifth, get use to it. I've written fanfiction (which is basically what this stuff is), so I know already what you guys seem to need to learn. You craft this wonderful piece of work, your baby, and set it loose in the world, confident that it will take the people by storm, and in five minutes, ten people completely trash it and everyone else seems to ignore it. And of course, you want to defend your baby, which is perfect in your eyes. And so you take a course of action, calling for nerfs and what not. Well, welcome to being an author. If you're looking for job satification, don't come here. Treasure the players who do come to your missions and play them and give you a 5 star rating, and as for the rest, learn to roll with the punches. I'd be willing to bet real money that if Cryptic's missions were put up for the officer report rewards, the only one anyone would play is "Spin the Wheel." Of course, it probably wouldn't qualify since there is no one to shoot
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

As a fan-fic author/foundry creator I definitely know about "get used to it".

One, not everyone will like your mission, even if they are striving for a good story based mission. I've had reviews from "best mission ever" (5 stars)
to "not realistic" (1-star for joo).
Two, a lot of us foundry authors have had to deal with the "drive-by" sabotage 1-star ratings as well. So a lot of us are used to such things.

I personally just try to adapt when I can. Do I want everyone to play my missions? Of course I do, but it isn't realistic, so I just go with the flow. Will I make a more
"grindy/loot grab" mission to get in a plug for my series and other missions?
Absolutely!

A lot of authors are more griped about the mission selection system than the grind missions themselves. Heck, even I took advantage of a clickie mish on occassion when my fleet was grinding to the next tier. Another thing to consider on the loot grab missions is that a lot of players are being tapped out of EC's to keep the reputation system going, so the lootgrabs are ways to replenish their bank account in game. I know this from experience helping fleetmates with credits who are tapped out. It is to be expected that the lootgrabs will be popular to some folks. Are they good story missions or fan fiction?
Absolutely not, nor are they intended to be. They are doing what they were designed for, just like the clickie missions did.

As such, I will build a daily grind/lootgrab mission as well, but with custom maps and some story to it to plug my other missions. I will adapt. Until there is a better selection process in the foundry mission menu, that is my choice.

Don't be too critical of authors who are incensed by these missions though. When you spend countless, countless hours building maps, storylines, and effects that no one else has done, it is only human to be displeased to see missions that take 2 hours or less to make on top of the main selection list. Until that changes, there will always be flaring tempers in the forums, we just need to try to take it into the proper context and not always classify complaining as "whining".

Happy Holidays everyone.

Duke-of-Rock
ABI-Artificial Borg Intelligence by Duke-of-Rock Available on Holodeck
Also play Spawn of Medusa - The 5 Part series
by Duke-of-Rock Available on Holodeck

Last edited by thedukeofrock; 12-27-2012 at 12:17 PM.
Rihannsu
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 644
# 29
12-27-2012, 12:09 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by designationxr377 View Post

Snipping a good post down to reply to a specific point.


Our current end result, lists of mission that either only tailor to (or have failed tailoring through) a vast majority of players who aren't interested in playing the content, but perhaps getting the rewards or avoiding the time spend in other aspects of content (which, I still don't understand. People who say they don't have the time to put in to the grind are now needing to spend 15 minutes at least in a mission to get the rewards. Aren't those the same times and rewards for the other content in game that takes 15 minutes? I can respect you don't have a lot of time as others for grinding in game, but, you're still spending the same amount of time in game.)

TL : DR

We got here down a long road of evolving game changes, which has resulted with the mission list crowded by ones designed to be most efficient for getting reward mission rewards.
If changes show anything, it's not going to last so long as work is still done on it.
Nothing wrong with the new grinder missions if they put polish on it and don't block the Story Based content the reward was designed for.
Sorry for double posting, but by the time I finish with one post, about three more people have posted after it. I need to type faster.

Specifically to your point about time spent, and specifically about myself, its not that I don't have time for the grind, its that my time is limited and I have to pick what I want to do. Lets say I have an hour to play in a day. These days I play some of the winter stuff, which takes about 15 minutes if I time it right. Then I take a look around. If someone is forming a team for STFs I usually try and put my hat into that ring, and that's another 15 to 30 minutes. And now I only have about 15 to 30 minutes left, and I still need some more dilithium for fleet stuff or saving for a new c-store ship. Before season 7, I'd do a three click clicky and then ship out to Defera for the rescue prisoner's missions, both the mine one and the Breen ship one. Now, I pick a simple looking foundry mission, which gives me the same as the Breen ones, and takes about the same time. The advantage of the officer reports is they also give fleet marks, so if I need fleet marks, and who doesn't, I'm going to pick that. On the other hand, if I get to tier 5 in Omega rep, I'd probably pick another STF to run for the marks, since I think I need those more. Now, if I suddenly find myself with nothing else to do for that hour of game time, if I don't have a pressing need for dilithium or marks, or whatever else in the game, and yes I admit that I am putting that need in myself, then I might go play an hour long mission in the foundry. That is my complaint about time, not that I don't have enough to grind, but I don?t' have enough to both grind and do something fun, like a foundry mission.

As for your TL;DR, IMHO, I think you are missing the point about the officer report mission. It is not designed for story missions, it is designed to be one way of maxing out on the daily dilithium. You can play 8 30 minute foundry missions and get your limit, or you can play 8 STFs and get your limit, or you can mix and match and add in some doff missions and get your limit. To me, looking at it, that is what that missions is for, another way to grind. And like STFs, it can be a fun way to grind, depending on your definition of fun. Now, if this was to be a story reward, the officer report missions would be something like what it was, a daily mission, but it would reward 8,000 dilithium, 50-400 fleet marks, depending on what cryptic feels like, and any mission would have to be an hour long and have at least ten screens of text. Actually, lets make it simple and say that it has to be a current or previously featured foundry mission. That way, the best foundry mission gets the best reward. And that is probably going to be the ONLY way you get the masses to play a story based foundry mission. And they will probably not leave any comments or good ratings.

Again, I'll point to my last post. I know most authors want to write the next War and Peace or the next Tale of Two Cities, or the next Best of Both Worlds, in this case, or what have you. And fanfiction, or the foundry, can let you do that, and that can be good. But if you want people to play your missions, and maybe give you tips, you have left the world of fanfiction where you can write anything. You have entered the world of published fiction, where you are selling something. And the first rule of published fiction is know your audience, aka the players. The players for the most part, don't want the next Best of Both Worlds, they want something quick and dirty. And you can do quick and dirty with a story, look at any cartoon these days. Well, repeating myself, but I hope you get what I am saying. You have to choose what you want to create, fanfiction, and be content with the few players who come and look at what you have, or published fiction and cater to the players for your payment.
Joined September 2011
Nouveau riche LTS member
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 2,888
# 30
12-27-2012, 12:33 PM
This isn't an exploit, boffs are made to be able to kill stuff on their own, that is the point in bringing an away team. Its working as intended.
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