Captain
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 2,245
# 321
12-28-2012, 08:07 AM
Beams do have...major issues right now. Lets say we have a ship with 6x BAs and a ship with 3x DHC/3x Turrets both at 125 power (yes i know you can over-cap ill get to that).

On a full volley the beam arrays will fire (6x4) 24 shots in roughly 4 seconds with a 1 second recharge.

1 @ 125 power
1 @ 115 power
1 @ 105 power
1 @ 95 power
1 @ 85 power
19 @ 75 power

By contrast a DHC/Turret combo will fire one shot per DHC every two seconds roughly.

1 @ 125 power
1 @ 113 power
1 @ 101 power
- turrets are not important

And then the weapons all reset and repeat the pattern, usually. Granted they have been adding ways to mitigate the power drain but still, that is bad especially when DHCs get an innate 2% crit boost.
Empire Veteran
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 6,766
# 322
12-28-2012, 08:45 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by bareel View Post
Beams do have...major issues right now. Lets say we have a ship with 6x BAs and a ship with 3x DHC/3x Turrets both at 125 power (yes i know you can over-cap ill get to that).

On a full volley the beam arrays will fire (6x4) 24 shots in roughly 4 seconds with a 1 second recharge.

1 @ 125 power
1 @ 115 power
1 @ 105 power
1 @ 95 power
1 @ 85 power
19 @ 75 power

By contrast a DHC/Turret combo will fire one shot per DHC every two seconds roughly.

1 @ 125 power
1 @ 113 power
1 @ 101 power
- turrets are not important

And then the weapons all reset and repeat the pattern, usually. Granted they have been adding ways to mitigate the power drain but still, that is bad especially when DHCs get an innate 2% crit boost.
So what your saying is that the 6 Beam Arrays will fire 6 shots a second while 4 DHCs fire 1 shot in the same 1 second time span and that the drain for 6 beam arrays firing 4 times each in 4 seconds is too much compared to 4 DHCs firing 2 times each in four seconds?

That seems fine to me considering the that the beams fire twice as often as the DHC's. The higher drain is the byproduct of shooting more shots. More shots I add that do not require any movement to aim them at a target.

Since when did DHCs get an inherent 2% crit buff?
Richard Hamilton (1975-2014)
goodbye good friend. We will see you in the DMZ in the sky oneday, save a shot for us.

Last edited by bitemepwe; 12-28-2012 at 08:57 AM.
Captain
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 3,238
# 323
12-28-2012, 09:32 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by bitemepwe View Post
That seems fine to me considering the that the beams fire twice as often as the DHC's.
I see you conveniently left out the small detail that DHCs do about 2 times the dmg per hit of a beam array, Example below. (States from info window with items in inventory)

Phaser Dual Heavy Cannons Mk X [Acc] [Dmg]
Damage per hit: 365.4 (243.6 DPS)
-12 Weapon power when firing other weapons
2 Second recharge
+10% Critical severity
+10% Accuracy

Phaser Beam Array Mk X [Acc] [Dmg]
Damage per hit: 210 (168 DPS)
-10 Weapon power when firing other weapons
1 Second recharge
+10% Accuracy

Due to the recharge they do fire the same number of shots every beam cycle but when you put both weapons at 1km and leave them both unbuffed with the same power settings the DHC will do more damage. And Apparently they do have an inherent crit damage boost
Empire Veteran
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 6,766
# 324
12-28-2012, 12:10 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by adamkafei View Post
I see you conveniently left out the small detail that DHCs do about 2 times the dmg per hit of a beam array, Example below. (States from info window with items in inventory)

Phaser Dual Heavy Cannons Mk X [Acc] [Dmg]
Damage per hit: 365.4 (243.6 DPS)
-12 Weapon power when firing other weapons
2 Second recharge
+10% Critical severity
+10% Accuracy

Phaser Beam Array Mk X [Acc] [Dmg]
Damage per hit: 210 (168 DPS)
-10 Weapon power when firing other weapons
1 Second recharge
+10% Accuracy

Due to the recharge they do fire the same number of shots every beam cycle but when you put both weapons at 1km and leave them both unbuffed with the same power settings the DHC will do more damage. And Apparently they do have an inherent crit damage boost
I did not leave it out becuase it was not relevant to the post. Bareel was showing the discrepancy in drain between the BA and DHCs.

The BA's drain more becuase they fire more shots from more weapons in the time span. Thus the drain is higher by a small margin before the cycle begins again. Had he tested 4 BA's against 4 DHCs, what do you think the drain numbers would look like?

Of course the Dual Heavy cannons do more damage than a single Beam Array. The DHC's are literally two heavy cannons linked into a single weapon while the BA is a single weapon at the lowest definition in its weapon classification.

If it was Dual heavy Beam Arrays tested against the DHC's then it would be a different story, possibly.

Stating that the Beam array does less damage than a DHC is like stating my .22 pistol does less damage than my 30-06 rifle. Its true and the reason why very is evident.

I want even begin to get into the differences in firing arcs being another big factor in why the damage is different.
Richard Hamilton (1975-2014)
goodbye good friend. We will see you in the DMZ in the sky oneday, save a shot for us.
Captain
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 2,245
# 325
12-28-2012, 12:41 PM
I can see that as usual I did not illustrate my point properly so I will try again.

Assumption: 15 seconds of firing, no lag, no UI lag, and ignoring potential energy drain resists.

6x Beam Arrays will fire three cycles each lasting 4+1(cooldown) total seconds with 4 shots per cycle.

3 @ 125 power
3 @ 115 power
3 @ 105 power
3 @ 95 power
3 @ 85 power
57 @ 75 power

Vast majority of shots made at 75 power, giving a damage bonus of 1.5

3x DHCs & 3x Turrets will fire ten cycles each lasting .5+1(cooldown) total seconds with 1 shot per cycle per DHC, two per cycle per Turret.

10 DHC @ 125 power
10 DHC @ 113 power
10 DHC @ 101 power
10 Turret @ 93 power
10 Turret @ 85 power
40 Turret @ 77 power

Vast majority of shots with big guns, DHCs are at over 100 power and one third are at full bonus.

That is what makes DHCs so strong. All of their shots are fired at nearly full weapon power bonus. That is not the case for any other cannon, and beams suffer the most because of the length of their firing cycle.
Empire Veteran
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 6,766
# 326
12-28-2012, 01:05 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by bareel View Post

That is what makes DHCs so strong. All of their shots are fired at nearly full weapon power bonus. That is not the case for any other cannon, and beams suffer the most because of the length of their firing cycle.
Becuase they fire less often at a higher drain with less weapons for more damage thier drain evens out to work better to thier own usage.

While Beam Arrays (a much weaker weapon) fire more shots from more weapons with slightly less drain per weapon but lose out becuase they are firing more shots overall.

Beams firing more often in the same time span gets more drain applied becuase there are more shots being fired which does not allow for any period of Pickup in weapons power.

The slow firing cycle of DHCs allows for this pickup. Fewer more but damaging shots for higher drain that is less in total due to the slow firing cycle of these weapons allow for the natural regen of weapons power.

So lower the drain on BA's to 8 and be done with it. The BA will still do less damage than a DHC but possibly the drain will be more manageble but given your still doing more shots from more weapons, I doubt it.

I mean at 4 shots per cycle per BA at 3 cycles each thats 72 cycles with 288 shots fired in that 15 seconds compared to the total (between DHCs and Turret) of 150 shots in the same 15 seconds.

Thats 2800 flat drain for all those BA shots overall.
Quote:
Weapon Power drain is now instantly refunded at the end of a weapon’s firing cycle, instead of a slow return as was previously implemented. Multiple weapons being fired at the same time will still produce a significant drain and will affect their damage proportionately, but once the weapons stop firing, the weapon power level will immediately return to normal.
Simply put, the BA firing cycle is what kills its own power due to its long firing cycle meaning that power drain is applied longer before being refunded by the game.
Richard Hamilton (1975-2014)
goodbye good friend. We will see you in the DMZ in the sky oneday, save a shot for us.

Last edited by bitemepwe; 12-28-2012 at 01:28 PM.
Survivor of Romulus
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 165
# 327
12-28-2012, 01:13 PM
For some odd reason my tactical Odyssey often ends up on first or second place in missions like Klingon Scout Force or Gorn Minefield.

I must be doing something wrong.

Small hint, 8 phaser arrays are not the only viable weapon layout.
Captain
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 3,553
# 328
12-28-2012, 03:48 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ascaladar View Post
For some odd reason my tactical Odyssey often ends up on first or second place in missions like Klingon Scout Force or Gorn Minefield.

I must be doing something wrong.

Small hint, 8 phaser arrays are not a viable weapon layout. (edited for accuracy)
Mine does that easily too. And it can get first in SB24. And if you're using 8 BAs, I weep for your ship.

Anyways... the arguments in the last couple posts were well informed and thought out. Gj guys. But now the Devil's Advocate must come into play.

BAs do horrendously low damage. They have a high weapon power drain due to their firing cycle and how many of them are usually going at once in a full broadside (believe me, I know this from my 7/1 Oddy setup... weapon power? what's that... -.-). BAs also do very low damage per shot and are MASSIVELY affected by power levels. Their only saving grace is that they instantly hit (no travel time for the shot), they only have a 40% damage loss as a result of range, and they have a 250 degree firing arc (something everyone here conveniently left out in their arguments).

DHCs do very high damage. They have a higher weapon power drain that is mitigated by a much slower firing cycle and the fact you can only have 4 of them firing at once (compared to 7 BAs), and that they have priority over turrets, and often only your opening salvo is a combination of turrets and DHCs, since they have somewhat different firing cycles, it's commonplace to have your second and third salvos have your turrets firing at different times from your DHCs. DHCs do high damage per hit, and are still affected by power drain, but due to what was listed above, it's almost a moot point (due also to overcap). Their weakness is that their shot has travel time, which gives the target time (albeit not much) to hit an EPtS, or some other defensive buff, they have MASSIVE damage loss due to range, and they only have a 45 degree firing arc (again something conveniently left out).

You also need to look at roles of weapons.

DHCs were designed for heavy up in your face burst damage and lower sustained DPS. They were designed to nuke a target's shields away and open up for a THY3 or TS3 on bare hull. But they don't make good harass, and you can't bombard a target effectively from 6-8k out with them. Also you have to constantly be pointed at your target and that limits your attack vectors and positioning severely.

BAs were designed for constant medium level pressure damage. They were designed to wear a targets shields down and keep constant damage on the target. They are a support weapon more than anything else (irony: cruisers are support craft as well... hm...) But they make up for this low damage by having this HUGE firing arc and a lower range damage reduction. So you CAN effectively bombard a target from 6-8k out, and the larger firing arc greatly reduces and almost removes the limits on both your attack vectors and your positioning.

Just a thought...
It is said the best weapon is one that is never fired. I disagree. The best weapon is one you only have to fire... once.
Tired of Wasting EC and Time trying to get Superior Romulan Operative BOffs? Here's a cheap and easy way to get them, with an almost 100% chance of success.
Why the Devs can't make PvE content harder.
Captain
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 2,245
# 329
12-28-2012, 06:45 PM
And DHCs in PvE content manage to ignore their intended 'weakness'. The firing arc of 45 degrees is not an issue, keeping a DHC on target is not an issue for a decent player. Yes your ship needs to be able to survive incoming enemy damage but because of the current 'tank' mechanics it does not matter if you can turn your ship or not. Either tac team + buffs are active and you can infact tank it or they are not and you esplode. Sole exception being hull tanking but then you still do not need to turn your ship. In addition the yo-yo maneuver allows you to avoid the negative defense issue.

While it is also true that cannon type weapons suffer a higher penalty at a longer range, their higher base damage combined with their higher efficiency with weapons power still allows them to put out the best sustained 'bombard' damage with the sole exception of specialized torpedo builds that can out perform them against hull targets.

PvP is a completely different ball game that I refuse to touch with a ten foot stick as far as balance goes, mainly because of the severe lack of it.
Empire Veteran
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 6,766
# 330
12-28-2012, 07:58 PM
PvE content in general tends overcome its own intended handicaps as NPCs for the most part are hardly a challenge.
PvP is where DHCs suffer thier narrow firing arc.
Until the game offers more challenge than a DPS race the weapon that does the best damage is always gonna make it look easy.

The answer seems simple. Adjust the drain for beams to a more reasonable rate kept in line with the game but frankly the huge amount of shots fired from beam arrays is why they have such a bad drain.
Richard Hamilton (1975-2014)
goodbye good friend. We will see you in the DMZ in the sky oneday, save a shot for us.
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