Captain
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 723
# 41
12-28-2012, 02:46 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by kamipoi View Post
im tired of seeing the same people come and stomp on this subject because they want to keep the status qua ~snip.
That assumption for one. I thought I explained it fairly well in my last post. We don't like the status quo, but we don't believe that segregating the queues is the solution. Meaning ful PvP development is the solution. Giving better incentives to play PvP is the solution. Making winning more meaningful than participation is the solution (which would give people a reason to become better).

The idea that we want things to stay as they are because we enjoy "bullying" PUGs is repugnant and that accusation is wrong to the point of idiocy.
Captain
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 2,395
# 42
12-28-2012, 03:44 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by brandonfl View Post
That assumption for one. I thought I explained it fairly well in my last post. We don't like the status quo, but we don't believe that segregating the queues is the solution. Meaning ful PvP development is the solution. Giving better incentives to play PvP is the solution. Making winning more meaningful than participation is the solution (which would give people a reason to become better).

The idea that we want things to stay as they are because we enjoy "bullying" PUGs is repugnant and that accusation is wrong to the point of idiocy.
Yet...it goes on, doesn't it?

We ALL agree that there needs to be something more to PvP than the windowlicker purple "I partisizapaded" ribbon. I think we all agree that Incentives+incentive to compete is extremely desirable.

But that's a side issue. The main issue, is whether a division of the ques would be useful in drawing in new players. That is the question we're not in agreement over-at present. There will be other questions we don't agree on in the future, and I'm thinking I might start a similar thread on HOW a more meaningful incentive system might work within the framework of what Cryptic's apparently limited to doing.


we SHOULD be discussing these matters where the Devs can SEE the discussion, and at least making an effort NOT to go mud-slinging (I apologize if I did some earlier) while we're discussing them-the purpose of this thread was to promote a pro-con approach so that ye random Developer who monitors this part of the forum, could maybe sieve something of use to mull over for next season or the season after.
"when you're out of Birds of Prey, you're out of ships."
Captain
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 9,306
# 43
12-28-2012, 01:06 PM
It's a curious thing, thinking about it.

You enter a match:

There's five guys from five different fleets. They're functioning like a pugmade. There's some crosshealing, target calling, and they beat your random team. One of them says gg, and you're likely to say gg back.

There's five guys from the same fleet. They're dropping extends like a can of Pringles, subnuking out the wahzoo, along with the usual phaser proc spam, etc, etc, etc. One of them says gg, and you're likely to say...

...I've come a long way. I no longer respond.

They might be saying out of pity. Maybe it's encouragement. Maybe it's just a reflex thing, match is over so they say gg.

But it wasn't. So it's a lie.

You might have lost the first one 15/3 and the second one 15/1 - so both were absolute trashing by the other team, but there was a world of difference in how the matches felt and played out.

You knew pretty early into each match that it was going to be a loss, but with the first - maybe the team could get a kill in before it was over. We got a few. With the second one, I've got no idea how we managed a kill. It was one of those matches where you think about not bothering to respawn.

Both were all but epic losses, but one actually was a gg - the other was just...well, why bother?

It's not about winning or losing - it's about the pew pew - it's about the play, whether you win or lose. It's meaningless PvP - just some casual and fun pew pew.

You go through, see what you did wrong, see what you did right, where you can improve, changes you may need to make, things that worked out well - and - you move on to the next match.

When you respawn and your systems are still dead because of the bugged way STO doesn't clear them - when you're looking at the respawn button again because your systems were dead again once you were in range, none of your buffs lasted more than a second, and the moment you targeted somebody they already had extends on them... well, what do you have to look at?

What did you do right? What did you do wrong? Did you actually do anything?

You're kind of left with what you did wrong was queue up...
...and the change you need to make is not to queue up.

Both were losses. Both were obviously going to be losses. So it's not about losing. Some folks don't understand that - you can still have fun while losing. You can learn from losing. You can get better from losing. You can have moments while losing where you pulled off something that you didn't think you could.

So it's not about losing.

However, when you don't do anything... I mean, you try to do something - you do what you did in the first match - but nothing shows for it... well, why bother?

So some people ask for there to be separate queues - not because they expect to win if the teams aren't there... but they at least expect to be able to play.

Some people say that they should be able to play with their friends, and such a system would make it more difficult to them play with their friends. They don't have a full five man team - their 2-3 man team couldn't work in this system. That it's not fair to them.

So what's fair for 2-3 people or what's fair for all the other folks?

The pugstomping teams drive folks away from the queues - or - they foster an AFK attitude for the daily. It doesn't make PvP better. Hell, the teams pugstomping aren't getting any better by doing it - I mean, think about it. It's going to dull their skills and tactics if they're not pressed with a challenge. What's going to happen to them when they face another coordinated team? They'll get stomped. Maybe that's why they pugstomp - the foodchain thing, eh?

Personally, I'm not sure there are enough people to have the separate queues. I think the suggestion for a test might work to see if more folks would queue up - see if it's viable. Course, now's a horrible time for that with everybody grinding rep.

This isn't a game with a hundred servers that they can do some cross-server thing and separate them... there's one server - there's only so many people interested.

Perhaps depending on how the boot camp thing goes - perhaps as time goes on - it might be something that comes up, something that becomes viable...

...as it stands, just don't be surprised that as teams pugstomp - that things get worse. It really shouldn't come as a surprise at all...

...just my two EC.

Oh well, going to have a smoke - go back for that third Arena and hope that I put in more than a half-assed effort...
Willard the Rat, Reman, F.T'varo - Rave, J.Trill, Kar'Fi - Mysk, Gorn, Varanus
Maal, Klingon, Mogh - Vegar, Orion, Marauder
Nivuh, Ferasan, B'rel - Venit, Lethaen, M.Qin - Kopor, Nausicaan, Guramba
Ensign
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 7
# 44
12-28-2012, 03:06 PM
The pugstomps....yeah, it's quite a turn-off. My fleet only has a few that will even enter the ques. I've been doing so lately simply because of boredom.

Been learning a TON tho. It's only rarely I can get one, sometimes, two other fleet members to come to the arena with me (and with us on Teamspeak it makes things alot easier). Yet, due to the massive pugstomp and overall cheesiness *some* pre-mades are infamous for really has my fellow fleetmembers avoiding the que like the plague.

I'm keeping it up, though. For now. I don't mind loosing since I learn a little more after each lost match, but when it's due to the constant spamming, I really learn nothing.

Anyway, segregated ques? Not a viable solution, I think. I'd consider it a step up if the que timer was accurate, instead of the 4-minute wait actually being 15-mintues.

Just my .2 cents

Trevor
Captain
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 9,306
# 45
12-28-2012, 03:19 PM
There's the queue timer being some random magical number.
There's the being second in queue and watching three games start while you're left in queue.
There's the waiting on players that restarts three or four times before the message just disappears - leaving you back to waiting in queue.
There's the game starts in 0...where nothing appears to happen (but if you change characters and change back, your toon's been sitting in the Arena or Cap).
There's the you joined the queue that never highlights nor shows the timer but won't let you join again because it says you're already queued even though you can't leave.
There's the need 8, 20 in the queue, that never pops.
There's the can't find the queue.

There might be other reasons as well, tbh, that folks may not bother...
Willard the Rat, Reman, F.T'varo - Rave, J.Trill, Kar'Fi - Mysk, Gorn, Varanus
Maal, Klingon, Mogh - Vegar, Orion, Marauder
Nivuh, Ferasan, B'rel - Venit, Lethaen, M.Qin - Kopor, Nausicaan, Guramba
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 248
# 46
12-28-2012, 05:25 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by shar487a View Post
...But it is a proof of concept

The forgone conclusion of a solo queue completely killing off team PVP, without even so much as an intro-test, is simply absurd.
This man has a point! from anouther post.

Do you neigh sayers think new to pvp players should have to put up with getting pug stomped till they leave pvp for good or should they have a place to learn with lower risk of dealing with getting pug stomped

if you say they have to get pug stomped to learn then you have a problem that needs counseling ill contact Troi on your behalf.

you can't start newer players and bad players out at full speed against premades of any sort they need a que they can join away from you or they simply won't adopt pvp as "fun" they will see it as most see it now frustrating no chance at fairness.

pvp is going to die either way at least try this first.
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