Ensign
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 9
# 1 cloaking during combat
12-29-2012, 03:06 AM
I've been back a few days now after a while away and something is bothering me. Now I play a Klingon but this I do not agree with.

The ability of some ships to launch a load of weapons whether it be torpedoes or mines then instantly cloak again giving absolutely no chance or retaliation.

The number of people doing this is ridiculous. It is basically a little to no risk strategy.

If you uncloak and fire ANY weapon there should be a minimum of a 10 second timer before you can cloak again. If you have attacked someone then you shouldn't be able to insta cloak before they can even lock on you
Granted there are counters to this but like anything you shouldn't have to run certain weapons or skills to counter this.

The idea behind the cloak is to give you a positional/surprise advantage, not to make you immune from people who haven't specifically built a ship to counter it.
Empire Veteran
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 4,770
# 2
12-29-2012, 09:13 AM
Was this PvE or PvP gameplay you were watching this in?

Do you, or were you watching a normal BoP, or a B'rel?

Cloaking DOES have a cooldown, all 3 versions. So even a Hegh'ta has to wait to recloak again.

Also, the whole point of advantage of the B'rel (since I'm guessing this is what you saw, or use), is that it CAN fire while remaining cloaked. Even then it's only a good amount of BOFF skills, or mines, or torpedoes, and that is all, it cannot fire energy weapons.

It's not OP in any shape, just very advantageous. Even in PvE my B'rel gets decloaked...ALL...the...time. Plus it does also have a 3 second period of being out of cloak (and targetable), when you fire torpedoes or use some abilities (like Hazard Emitters on an ally).

In short, it has it's advantages and disadvantages. In PvP you have to build to counter it, but the BoP flyer has to build to fly that well in the first place. Besides, Fed toons have plenty of outright counters to de-cloak someone.

In short, you're far from immune.

Captain
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 1,273
# 3
12-29-2012, 02:39 PM
Pretty much what mimey said. What you're describing sounds like the Enhanced Battlecloak on the B'rel retrofit, which is a 2000 zen C-store ship that is effectively distinguished by just that feature. The only point of getting the B'rel retrofit is to use that Enhanced Battlecloak, which enables the pilot to launch torpedoes and mines while cloaked with a 3-second window of visibility, and enables them to use certain abilities on themselves while cloaked. The regular battlecloak, available to all Bird of Prey ships and the Pegh'qu destroyer, doesn't do this.

The Enhanced Battlecloak, if disrupted by the wide array of cloak-disruptors that are out there, is subject to the exact same 20-second cooldown that all cloaks, even battlecloaks, are subject to. Also, if you manage to launch a salvo of torpedoes, especially quantum torpedoes, while the ship is targetable. . .they'll get hurt

Or you could just fire a 'target auxiliary' shot, which will disable the cloaking device (which relies on auxiliary power to operate).

About the only way the B'rel retro can truly be lethal is if it drops tricobalt mines on you, or fires both a tricobalt torpedo device and maybe a transphasic cluster torpedo at you at close range. . .both strategies are able to be resisted/deflected if you're paying attention (which you should be in PvP areas). If they're specc'd right, both of those could seriously damage or destroy you in a single barrage. Otherwise, the B'rel is more of a sniper, lobbing torpedoes from 8-9k km using the enhanced aspect of its battlecloak. It's very useful for keeping stragglers from escaping to rejoin a larger group of friendly players, because firing torpedoes at someone keeps them in Red Alert mode, restricting them from Full Impulse.
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 3,186
# 4
12-29-2012, 02:52 PM
Visit wiki and find out how to pull a ship out of cloak. Maybe if you tractor him before he cloaks you may get the opportunity to retaliate.
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Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 908
# 5
12-29-2012, 02:54 PM
This will always be debated to death but..

Brel = SQUISHY, VERY,

While it can drop mines/torps under cloak, if someone spots you during that opening, hits you with....

sub nuke/viral matrix/photon shockwave/emission torp/target aux/carrier pets/emergencey to aux/sensor scan/the two tachyon field detection skills/a torp salvo/gravity well/tykens rift/charged particle burst..

that brel, it can be in big trouble.. very quickly

Thats a fairly big list ^

And given the squishiness, you might just find that a torp salvo or two, might very well have that brel in pieces

yes, the tric spam bops that exist, (im ashamed to say i played with them for a bit for lols..) are easily thwarted by a pilot who doesnt panic, and has a degree of skill.

Most of my tric bombing runs failed against better pilots, its only real sucesses where against people who thing the best defence to an alpha strike in engineering team 8-)

edit:
Heck even scramble sensors will turn those bad boy mines against the bop if memory serves
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Ensign
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 9
# 6
12-29-2012, 03:57 PM
this was in pvp game play.....kdf/kdf

If it was only using torps/mines and doesn't uncloak to do so how are you supposed to kill it?

Only thing I could think off was some sort of aoe but you still need to be able to target it surely?
A lot of the skills you've mentioned require you to be able to target him to fire them near him.

i was in my carrier and couldn't even get my pets to attack him. granted he couldn't break my tank but the arse just kept attacking me so I couldn't do anything including leave.

In the end (after about 20 minutes) I just went and sat in amongst a group of Borg cubes just to get away from him.

Sorry there may be counters to it but it seems way overpowered regardless.
Captain
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 1,273
# 7
12-29-2012, 06:29 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by krypal View Post
this was in pvp game play.....kdf/kdf

If it was only using torps/mines and doesn't uncloak to do so how are you supposed to kill it?

Only thing I could think off was some sort of aoe but you still need to be able to target it surely?
A lot of the skills you've mentioned require you to be able to target him to fire them near him.

i was in my carrier and couldn't even get my pets to attack him. granted he couldn't break my tank but the arse just kept attacking me so I couldn't do anything including leave.

In the end (after about 20 minutes) I just went and sat in amongst a group of Borg cubes just to get away from him.

Sorry there may be counters to it but it seems way overpowered regardless.
And they are targetable for about 2-3 seconds. You've gotta be quick on the button with the disable/hold move.

There are certain skills that don't need to be targeted that can really mess with cloaked BoPs in general. Charged Particle Burst will most likely decloak anything within 5km, especially if you're at high auxiliary power. Sensor scan for science officers, when untargeted, can potentially decloak enemies that are within 5km. Scramble sensors will mess with any destructible projectiles (tricobalts, cluster torpedoes, etc). Heck, even warp plasma might catch the BoP if you have a good idea where he is and he's not paying attention.

As for it being OP. . .you've gotta keep in mind that this basically makes the B'rel retro a one-trick pony. This sort of thing is about the only thing it's good for, other than being a makeshift sci ship that can use heals while cloaked. If you wanna hit-and-run ambush with alphastrikes, you just stick with the Hegh'ta or get a fleet BoP. There's a reason why Bird of Prey ships spend a lot of time cloaked in PvP, especially in places like Ker'rat. They're squishy, and rely on the advantage of surprise/tactical mobility to succeed. The B'rel retro just takes that to the next level.
Captain
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 2,392
# 8
12-29-2012, 08:19 PM
To the OP: sounds/looks to me like you just had your first encounter with a B'rel Retrofit, and as Travelingmaster pointed out, it's basically got ONE trick-a trick that, once you know it's there, can be successfully (even easily) countered using basic-menu bridge officer abilities like PSW, Gravity Well, etc. and Sci captain abilities like sensor analysis.

Be also aware that AOE weapons do considerably more damage to the B'rel Retro if it's cloaked, due to the simple fact that improved cloak still shuts the shields off-meaning that a Tric detonation is hitting pure hull, as in bare hull, when it's operating "invisibly", and remember also that mines and pets still see cloaked ships just fine.
"when you're out of Birds of Prey, you're out of ships."
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 542
# 9
12-30-2012, 04:41 AM
I picked up a B'rel a few days ago, haven't taken it into Ker'rat yet (the character it's for isn't Lv 50). If all the feddies cry this much about its better-than-a-normal-battle-cloak, it's gonna be a lot of fun

I've also got a bio-neural warhead for it, so I can engage at 15km, and in theory the target won't even know they're in trouble until the torpedo's point defence starts chewing on their shields.
Career Officer
Join Date: Nov 2012
Posts: 286
# 10
12-30-2012, 01:49 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by elandarksky View Post
This will always be debated to death but..

Brel = SQUISHY, VERY,

While it can drop mines/torps under cloak, if someone spots you during that opening, hits you with....

sub nuke/viral matrix/photon shockwave/emission torp/target aux/carrier pets/emergencey to aux/sensor scan/the two tachyon field detection skills/a torp salvo/gravity well/tykens rift/charged particle burst..

that brel, it can be in big trouble.. very quickly

Thats a fairly big list ^

And given the squishiness, you might just find that a torp salvo or two, might very well have that brel in pieces

yes, the tric spam bops that exist, (im ashamed to say i played with them for a bit for lols..) are easily thwarted by a pilot who doesnt panic, and has a degree of skill.

Most of my tric bombing runs failed against better pilots, its only real sucesses where against people who thing the best defence to an alpha strike in engineering team 8-)

edit:
Heck even scramble sensors will turn those bad boy mines against the bop if memory serves
For those who don't understand (and the people it bothers the most probably don't read the forums) this retrofit is based off of ST6 where General Chang fires photon torpedos from under the Enterprise while cloaked to destroy the Klingon Flag ship. He also later uses this tactic to attack the Enterprise nearly destroying it.

In retaliation Scotty and Spock outfit a "Heat Seeking Torpedo" to counter these cloaked attacks.

STO has both these available in game:

B'rel Bird-of-Prey Retrofit with its Advanced Battle Cloak

Cruiser Refit (Exeter Class) with a Universal Console, Console - Universal - Ionized Gas Sensor

The B'rel is the ONLY ship that has the Enhanced Battle Cloak and it is not a console that can be moved to another ship!

The Ionized Gas Sensor Console, however, can be moved to any ship AND this refit only costs 750 Zen. Using this console will enable you to attack ANY cloaked ship! And as we all know they have NO Shields when cloaked! Not only this but when attacked they lose the cloak and you can attack them freely after that!

I've played against the B'rel dropping the Aceton Assimilator all over the map along with mines and never leaving cloak except for the blink when they deploy these items.

In C&H this is very difficult to deal with as the AA's are devastating when you are in combat and near impossible to counter.

While I applaud people for coming up with the tactic and I'm sure it seems somewhat fun for you, it is not for others.

However, Feds you can get this console, put it on any ship you wish and use it to combat these tactics!
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