Lt. Commander
Join Date: Sep 2012
Posts: 144
# 11
12-29-2012, 08:16 PM
Well... that kinda gets into the definition of "technically alive", which once you actually start trying to pin it down turns out to be much more of an intuitive "I know it when I see it" distinction than a technical (or even really useful) one.

In the situation as presented (the Scorpion one, not the Hugh one), the Faustian bargain was IMO kinda justified. Destroying 8472 would've been neither justified nor well motivated, since at the time they were only responding to the Borg and not a known threat to others per-se (Harry's inevitable suffering notwithstanding: remember that the Borg were the only "outsiders" they'd encountered up to that point).

I do agree with the posters who said 7 should've stayed more borgified. BOBW and FC kinda left me with the impression that the assimilation process was too invasive for shipboard medical facilities alone to fix. Maybe not full-drone, since they were able to de-gunk Picard a bit in BOBW, but instead just stuck with second-stage implant removal makeup she had at the end of the ep.

But apparently having a pin-up on the crew was way more important than having the show be a bit more intelligent. Given how VOY was written generally, that's really all you'd expect anyway.

Haven't seen the Hugh ep in a long time, so I don't remember the particulars or what all their options really were.
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 11,092
# 12
12-29-2012, 08:40 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by connectamabob View Post
Well... that kinda gets into the definition of "technically alive", which once you actually start trying to pin it down turns out to be much more of an intuitive "I know it when I see it" distinction than a technical (or even really useful) one.
That's my point exactly. It doesn't matter whether the Borg are alive or not, it doesn't matter what rights they have, they're a menace that only seeks to consume and destroy. That in and of itself necessitates their destruction.
http://i1151.photobucket.com/albums/o633/centersolace/189cux9khvl6ojpg_zpsca7ccff0.jpg

So inhumane superweapons, mass murder, and canon nonsense is okay, but speedos are too much for some people.
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,906
# 13
12-29-2012, 10:06 PM
Janeway's actions were not justified, sacrificing another species just to get a short cut home should damn her utterly, she could have bidden her time, left well enough alone and let 8472 clear a path for her which it was doing quite effectively. But then there were a lot of scenarios where common sense was left at the door, they wouldn't have even been stuck in the Delta quadrant if she'd just left a timed explosive hidden on the Keepers array, they go home, array goes boom, end of story.
The primary reason for deborgifying Seven was because that makeup is painful to wear, and having to wear it consistently for several seasons could to lead to serious skin problems, but that doesn't justify her ending up as a bimbo in a catsuit, that was thrown in to appeal to the teenage male demographic, stuff like that is bound to happen when the producers are more interested in the Neilson index than in telling an intelligent story.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 115
# 14
12-30-2012, 03:31 AM
Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't Kes say (When she was in contact with the Undine (Or Species 8472, whatever you prefer) that they told her: "The weak shall perish" and "Your galaxy will be purged." Which doesn't only mean the Borg, but everyone else aswell. Which then leads to the conclusion that the Undine were a bigger threat to the galaxy than the Borg.

I could be wrong though, been a while since I've seen VOY.
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 829
# 15
12-30-2012, 03:41 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by maxvitor View Post
Janeway's actions were not justified, sacrificing another species just to get a short cut home should damn her utterly, she could have bidden her time, left well enough alone and let 8472 clear a path for her which it was doing quite effectively. But then there were a lot of scenarios where common sense was left at the door, they wouldn't have even been stuck in the Delta quadrant if she'd just left a timed explosive hidden on the Keepers array, they go home, array goes boom, end of story.
The primary reason for deborgifying Seven was because that makeup is painful to wear, and having to wear it consistently for several seasons could to lead to serious skin problems, but that doesn't justify her ending up as a bimbo in a catsuit, that was thrown in to appeal to the teenage male demographic, stuff like that is bound to happen when the producers are more interested in the Neilson index than in telling an intelligent story.
Fwiw, One doesn't have to be teenager, nor male (if that matters) to enjoy bimbos in catsuits...
Vice Admiral Kerayz of the Federation of Misfits.
Captain
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 3,392
# 16
12-30-2012, 05:28 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by maxvitor View Post
The primary reason for deborgifying Seven was because that makeup is painful to wear, and having to wear it consistently for several seasons could to lead to serious skin problems, but that doesn't justify her ending up as a bimbo in a catsuit, that was thrown in to appeal to the teenage male demographic, stuff like that is bound to happen when the producers are more interested in the Neilson index than in telling an intelligent story.
To be fair, I remember reading an interview years ago with Jeri Ryan where she said that the costume/prosthetics pressed on her neck, and she blacked out on set (probably why they modified it to the partial de-assimilation) but yeah, absolutely no justification for her winding up in the catsuit... None of the Borg children wound up in catsuits, they immediately wore civilian clothing (and to be honest, I always rather liked Icheb's sweaters ) I understand that she was hired to boost ratings, but that's no reason to degrade the woman and treat her like a piece of meat... (I feel the same way about Jolene Blalock's treatment)

Last edited by marcusdkane; 12-30-2012 at 05:43 AM.
Starfleet Veteran
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 1,660
# 17
12-30-2012, 05:34 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by chokopop1 View Post
Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't Kes say (When she was in contact with the Undine (Or Species 8472, whatever you prefer) that they told her: "The weak shall perish" and "Your galaxy will be purged." Which doesn't only mean the Borg, but everyone else aswell. Which then leads to the conclusion that the Undine were a bigger threat to the galaxy than the Borg.

I could be wrong though, been a while since I've seen VOY.
Your not, I remember that. You have a point
Hopefully I'll come back from my break; this break is fun; I play intellectual games.

I hope STO get's better ...
Survivor of Romulus
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 4,593
# 18
12-30-2012, 07:06 AM
There was no place on voyager for a borg
Starfleet Veteran
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 887
# 19
12-30-2012, 07:48 AM
I thought the Borg plot line in Voyager was great, but I like anything to do with Borg in general. I don't understand the hate that a lot of this community feels for them. If they were removed, they would have to come up with some other super-powerful evil race hell-bent on our destruction. I for one, would prefer the Borg over some other far uglier race like the Undine. Cyborgs just look cool.

Also I would like to point out Seven wasn't the first to break the mold an not wear a uniform. Kira in DS9 didn't, and Counselor Troi in TNG didn't - and she was Starfleet!
Captain
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 3,392
# 20
12-30-2012, 08:25 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by kamiyama317 View Post
I thought the Borg plot line in Voyager was great, but I like anything to do with Borg in general. I don't understand the hate that a lot of this community feels for them. If they were removed, they would have to come up with some other super-powerful evil race hell-bent on our destruction. I for one, would prefer the Borg over some other far uglier race like the Undine. Cyborgs just look cool.
My beef wasn't with the presence of the Borg, I knew that was coming from Voyager's first day in the Delta Quardrant. My beef was that they took a drone and turned her into a bridge bunny for nothing more than ratings. Good writing will also draw viewers... My inlaws are hardly the typical demographic for Big Bang Theory and Two Broke Girls, yet the love them both, because of the quality of the writing.

Quote:
Originally Posted by kamiyama317 View Post
Also I would like to point out Seven wasn't the first to break the mold an not wear a uniform. Kira in DS9 didn't, and Counselor Troi in TNG didn't - and she was Starfleet!
Kira was a member of the Bajoran Militia... She wore the appropriate uniform till she was commissioned into Starfleet, and then, she wore a Starfleet uniform.

Agreed, Troi did get away with wearing civilian clothes on duty for a time (but they were always dresses, never a figure-hugging catsuit like Jeri and Jolene got sewn into...) but when Jellico was assigned as Captain, he politely informed her that he expected officers to wear uniform, and she never again wore her civilian clothes on duty... Picard let her get away with it, but it certainly wasn't 'standard practice' for all females in the fleet
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