Captain
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 2,161
# 341
12-29-2012, 06:16 PM
That would be wonderful and solve so many ... annoyances in the game and add consistency. Right now any weapon enhancing ability (say FaW or CRF, or even APO) has it's damage increase determined by the current damage potential of the ship it is used on. The fact that healing/resists/etc do not is what leads to the current issue of either all ships are tanky or none are.

A defiant should be easier to get killed in, but the moment the bump up the difficulty to the point where my defiant will pop the vast majority (not all but most) of player's cruisers will also be exploding left and right.
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,710
# 342
12-29-2012, 10:13 PM
Adam, Bareel.

Lets assume you DO get your improvements to beams and you do substancially more damage. Would you also be willing to give up an equally substancial amount of survivability?
Captain
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 3,553
# 343
12-29-2012, 10:28 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by skyranger1414 View Post
Adam, Bareel.

Lets assume you DO get your improvements to beams and you do substancially more damage. Would you also be willing to give up an equally substancial amount of survivability?
You spelled "substantially" wrong.

And as for adamkafei and bareel, it comes down to this: cruisers are healers and tanks. Get over it. You want to deal damage with them, you sacrifice your survivability. I was given a hard lesson in this today in a PvP round where I had 2 bugs and a regent on me. If I was in tank mode I would have been fine. I could have done without the sub-nuke as well. But since I was in offensive mode (ltcmdr tac instead of engi or sci), I got killed. Not quickly mind you (killing a properly built oddy always takes time), but I was still killed.

That is balance. You have to sacrifice to gain. I was easily doing twice as much damage as any cruiser out there (was able to destroy a vesta by my lonesome lol), but I was a terrible healer and not a very good tank as a result. You can't have it all, so stop trying to get it all.

You will NEVER deal as much damage as an escort. That's their job. Damage dealer. You are a cruiser. A support craft. That's your job. Healer/pressure damage. An escort will NEVER be able to take the beating your cruiser can. That's not it's job. That's yours. -.-
It is said the best weapon is one that is never fired. I disagree. The best weapon is one you only have to fire... once.
Tired of Wasting EC and Time trying to get Superior Romulan Operative BOffs? Here's a cheap and easy way to get them, with an almost 100% chance of success.
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Captain
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 3,134
# 344
12-30-2012, 04:34 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by hereticknight085 View Post
You will NEVER deal as much damage as an escort. That's their job. Damage dealer. You are a cruiser. A support craft. That's your job. Healer/pressure damage. An escort will NEVER be able to take the beating your cruiser can. That's not it's job. That's yours. -.-
And as Bareel, yourself and many others, have pointed out if you build an escort right you can tank anything and everything in the game, I've taken my Excelsior up against some bugs and they tank better than your Oddy. So I think we can have a little more damage, I have never said I want to deal escort level damage but if they can compete with us when it comes to tanking I think we can be allowed to compete in damage terms, not doing their level of damage but to be able to compete.

Even with the changes we proposed we still couldn't do escort level damage due to boffs so please stop exaggerating my proposals

Quote:
Originally Posted by skyranger1414 View Post
Adam, Bareel.

Lets assume you DO get your improvements to beams and you do substantially more damage. Would you also be willing to give up an equally substantial amount of survivability?
The power drain reduction of 1 or 2 points and/or a damage improvement of 5% and Acc being accounted for in FAW is not a substantial boost to beam damage and yes I would be giving up that same amount of survivability, in case you haven't noticed most NPCs use BAs and 2 of the 3 fed side ship classes use BAs.

Also changing the way healing is done making it percentage based will make the higher stats on the cruiser actually mean something, as Bareel mentioned all damage boosts are based on your current stats yet healing is based on an arbitrarily chosen number in an attempt to find a healing balance between the ships which can never be met by this method but a percentage based system would provide that balance.

In closing I ask you both if escorts are allowed to tank like cruisers and lets face it we've all seen escorts tanking gates, cube etc, you two have said that your escorts can tank said enemies why shouldn't cruisers be able to compete on the damage scene?
Captain
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 2,161
# 345
12-30-2012, 08:54 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by adamkafei View Post

In closing I ask you both if escorts are allowed to tank like cruisers and lets face it we've all seen escorts tanking gates, cube etc, you two have said that your escorts can tank said enemies why shouldn't cruisers be able to compete on the damage scene?
This x10.

As for PvP balance until certain premade steamroll options (subnuke doffs/P2W console spams) are removed or fixed along with some other stupid silly broken combos (tric bombing timeships) are fixed I see no reason at all to care about so called 'balance' in PvP. Sorry if this offends anyone but last tornie thread had the entire PvP community going tooth and nail at one another on what is broken and what isn't. Not to mention the premade hate going on over some specific combos.
Empire Veteran
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 6,766
# 346
12-31-2012, 07:30 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by adamkafei

In closing I ask you both if escorts are allowed to tank like cruisers and lets face it we've all seen escorts tanking gates, cube etc, you two have said that your escorts can tank said enemies why shouldn't cruisers be able to compete on the damage scene?
Escorts are not allowed to tank like Cruisers. They learned how to do it from Hilbert and the variuos ideas that exist on resist stacking. Basically someone figured out the best method of enhancing survival and its now the norm for all ships.

Its not like its a great secret to cycle two EPTS1's for the uptime and resists, or to enhance it even more with HE, TSS, PH, or A2Sif.

Those Escorts though, learned how to tank using the rules and abilities that already existed, so why can't the Cruiser learn how to do damage the same way as many methods exist to increase the damage of Beams on Cruisers.

I still think a Beam Rapid Fire BOff ability could help her without being a direct buff to beams or Cruiser for a perceived "tankyness" that Escorts never recieved but discovered how to put into effect.
Richard Hamilton (1975-2014)
goodbye good friend. We will see you in the DMZ in the sky oneday, save a shot for us.
Captain
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 2,161
# 347
12-31-2012, 10:16 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by bitemepwe View Post
Escorts are not allowed to tank like Cruisers. They learned how to do it from Hilbert and the variuos ideas that exist on resist stacking. Basically someone figured out the best method of enhancing survival and its now the norm for all ships.

Its not like its a great secret to cycle two EPTS1's for the uptime and resists, or to enhance it even more with HE, TSS, PH, or A2Sif.

Those Escorts though, learned how to tank using the rules and abilities that already existed, so why can't the Cruiser learn how to do damage the same way as many methods exist to increase the damage of Beams on Cruisers.

I still think a Beam Rapid Fire BOff ability could help her without being a direct buff to beams or Cruiser for a perceived "tankyness" that Escorts never recieved but discovered how to put into effect.

Two big comments on this.

1) The escort 'class' has very little inherent penalty to becoming tanky beyond a lower max HP and a slightly lower innate shield regeneration and hull restore. No abilities, gear, or anything take these factors into account when determining their effects as far as defense goes. The escort's only true limitation from a defense perspective are her boff slot arrangements. Let me just say the Timeship escorts can infact out 'self tank' the majority of cruisers thanks to her uni boff slots and defense bonus. Just like the Tholian ships can perform better as 'healers' because of the same reason.

Survival Time = (Base HP + Healed HP) * resists * avoidance
Note that most ships healed HP will exceed base HP in about 30 seconds and does not factor in the base HP when determined

2) The beam array does have penalties that stick beyond boff abilities. First off is the power drain we have already covered but does have methods of mitigating. But beyond that because every offensive ability takes the base weapon into account and multiplies its values combined with the lower innate values of the beam array it will never be able too.

Damage Output = (Base Weapon + Bonus Damage) * ASpeed Mod * Crit Mod * Armor Mod * Damage Mod
Note that even bonus damage takes the base weapon into account.

Although in closing cruisers can in fact put out decent DPS. But not to the same degree as an escort can have decent tank if that makes sense. In addition you only need enough tank to survive, anything extra in PvE is simply inefficient similar to a premade PvP escort that packs too much of it's own tank instead of relying on the healer to keep him alive will have less spike/burst than he should.

The core root of the problem is the way things scale. DHC+turret scales better than BAs with more weapons. Attack patterns, weapon abilities, and the like also scale better than heals do, but not better than resistances. They are doing things to mitigate this with the new gear but the game would have a much healthier long term balance if they solved it from the mechanics side.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 108
# 348
12-31-2012, 10:48 AM
Cruisers are just ok, but currently except for the reason "i like how it looks" there is no reason to choose a cruiser over an escort. Unless you are in a premade pvp match escorts do what a cruiser can do.

Lowering beam power drain will help. Cruisers are supposed to pack 6 beams and broadside. But weapon drain makes this inefficient.

Tie heals to crew size or to base hull/shiled hp. This will take away scorts tankiness while adding more usefullness to cruisers.

Thank you
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,710
# 349
12-31-2012, 03:36 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by allmytee View Post
Cruisers are just ok, but currently except for the reason "i like how it looks" there is no reason to choose a cruiser over an escort.
Reading what you'v said right here makes me think the real problem is that a lot of people WANT to play escorts but feel forced (presumably by their love of the show's big ships) to play cruisers. Of course other simply want to have a nearly stationary invincible gun battery. I suspect this is why so many people clamor for the Typhon Battleship, they hope it'd be just that.

Cruisers have a certain playstyle that is wholly different than escorts, they are not meant to play the same way at all, nor do the exact same damage, nor move the same way, nor tank the same. That said, which cruiser you fly makes a huge difference. Ships like the Galaxy and the Starcruiser are very, VERY engi and sci leaning, so much so that they are practically gimped before you even get them in your hangar IMHO! If you feel that your tactical oriented cruiser is not pulling its weight then something is definitely wrong though, and probably with you and not the ship.

Of course, it could also be a matter of focus. Players really need to understand that Escorts destroy one target at a time while cruisers are masters of the furball. I take my engi cruiser to Starbase 24 all the time and assuming no disconnects or lag outs I usually come in first or second, a feat my escort could never hope to accomplish.
Empire Veteran
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 6,766
# 350
12-31-2012, 04:45 PM
[quote]
Quote:
Originally Posted by bareel View Post
snipped........
So basically it still boils down to Beam arrays are too costly and do too low damage for it and need to be buffed and bit. We really need something comparable to the DHCs in effeciency and damage-wise that wouldn't be bad too.
Cruisers are to slow and don't do enough damage which needs to be buffed somehow, but tank fine though the escorts still make it look easy fast littel bastards. So hard to hi.......


Anyways, the escence of the gripe hasn't changed.

So I'll say what I always say.


Heavy Beam arrays = basically the DHC's of beams. Yeah, thier still a 60 degree FA but what does one expect on a beam weapon that has lower degridation over range, does DHC similiar damage and can be buffed by BO3? A cruiser is not an escort though such an FA should be fine and balance the weapon with the game. Now the Cruiser can spike like the Escort.

Changes the existing FA's on all Beam and Cannon weapon to thus,

Beam Arrays = 270 FA. They keep same stats. BA remain the "easy weapon" choice in STO. (as an additon lower thier drain to 8)

Single cannon = 250' FA. Much media has talked on how cannon would be mounted down the length on KDF ships so why does the single cannon suffer as a broad side weapon? It has lower DPV than a Beam Array and even at Mk12 its DPS is not outstanding. Why is this weapon this bad?

Dual Beam Banks = Open them up to 180 Degree's but keep all other stats the same. They already do way more than a Dual cannon on any day say why would they need a damage buff?

Dual Cannons = open them to 90' FA. Buff thier damage to 200 DPV. Keep DPS the same. They suck under a 45 FA for the shytte damage they do.

Heavy Beams = see above. Basically though at Mk 12 they are the same as DHCs but the stats look something like this for a white { 420 DPV / 200 DPS }. It keeps with the beams are high DPV/low DPS concept.

Dual Heavy Cannons = They stay the same, as they are perfect.

Quad cannons = Need help, as I think they lack the credentials to be considered a completely viable weapon.

In additon add a form of Beam turrets to the game. What would it hurt?

Then add a few more BOff abilities to help the Cruisers perform better and that the avertage cannon wielding escort will most likely only dabble in;

Fire For Effect = The Beam version of Cannon rapid fire but set its start at Ensign and cap out at LTC. If one can't take basically the focused version of CRF for beams and make it work to really good damage then I do not know what to say or do at this point. Its a direct damage buff for beams in addition to BO.

Cannon Overload = Name needs work but basically the cannon version of Beam Overload, inluding ridiculus drain.

Otherwise I can't agree wth half the stuff I see in these threads as it all quickly devolves into fan built-up wants that leave baalnce behind for te most part.

Frankly put, its theage of the Escort in STO. Don't fear it though as it was once the age of teh Cruiser and the Science vessel at one time and the Age of the Escort will pass too.

I just don't want the game to roll back into the other three again and just start the cycle all over again so in 9-12 months having the Escort/Tacs complaining about balance etc.

They cant balance anything by continually putting the next "class" in the limelight.
Richard Hamilton (1975-2014)
goodbye good friend. We will see you in the DMZ in the sky oneday, save a shot for us.
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