Career Officer
Join Date: Nov 2012
Posts: 54
# 51
12-30-2012, 10:47 AM
Since @Gingie was so kind to create this rather hefty thread in my honor, I thought it would only be right to supply a rebuttal.

Quote:
Originally Posted by starkofthenorth View Post
We all knew a new exploit would come around eventually. Well I found one and this one in particular makes me sick to my stomach.
Your definition of exploit is incorrect. You're mistaking something you personally don't like for malicious or advantageous hacking. My missions use the same primitive and limited building functions that anyone can use.

Quote:
Originally Posted by starkofthenorth View Post
The mission itself is exactly what the description says. You set your Boffs to stand in an area then you go to a raised platform with a good view of the arena and activate a console. A wall then appears preventing enemies from getting in or you getting out. The battle goes on with no influence from your captain at all unless you can jump like a Catian/Ferasan.

The only redeeming quality of this mission is it's intelligent map design.
Thank you. It's a definite design challenge. Though Feds on Fire was just a test case, I hope my subsequent maps will be more interesting and elaborate.

Quote:
Originally Posted by starkofthenorth View Post
The following review rebutted my own, claiming "*******" like me are the ones responsible for the nerfs.
He does have a point. A few Foundry authors do have a primadonna attitude and essentially petitioned for the nerfs by asking the devs to "do something" about the clickers.

And now it seems there is another mission type to crusade against. Should the devs "do something" again and further cripple this game?

Quote:
Originally Posted by starkofthenorth View Post
What are your thoughts, do you disagree that this kind of mission is anathema to the spirit of the Foundry?
There is no "spirit of the foundry" except in the minds of a small clique. I am a player and lifetime subscriber and my missions are no more or less valid a creation than theirs. Ultimately, the Foundry is a corporate space and its "spirit" is determined by Cryptic/PWE.

Quote:
Originally Posted by starkofthenorth View Post
Are Dilithium rewards so important that this gets higher ratings than others?
Because Cryptic/PWE has decided for the last two seasons to introduce asian-style grinding, the answer is yes. Time and resources are in short supply, which creates the conditions where some mission types are not only desired but necessary.

If you'd like to discuss layout or mechanics of my missions, I'd love to have that dialog.

Sincerely,
Izdubar
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,497
# 52
12-30-2012, 12:41 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by designationxr377 View Post
The OP's major problem he started the post with was he didn't like the idea of a Foundry Mission designed so that the player didn't do anything, just sat there as his Boffs fought for him and he couldn't aid.

...
This is my view too. If people want to shoot stuff for 30 minutes that's fine. A mission where you click a button and watch TV and get free stuff is not so kosher

Check out my Foundry missions:
Standalone - The Great Escape - The Galaxy's Fair - Purity I: Of Denial - Return to Oblivion
The Defenders - Duritanium Man - The Improbable Bulk - [WIP] Commander Rihan
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 115
# 53
12-30-2012, 01:21 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by grindisbaddesign View Post
He does have a point. A few Foundry authors do have a primadonna attitude and essentially petitioned for the nerfs by asking the devs to "do something" about the clickers.

And now it seems there is another mission type to crusade against. Should the devs "do something" again and further cripple this game?
Ok, first lets get this straight: Cryptic considers dil to be a reward for time played, dsthal pretty much said so. Whether anyone complained about it or not they were not going to keep letting folks get 1440 for 5 seconds of play for forever. Why it took so long for them to change it is still a mystery.

Quote:
Originally Posted by grindisbaddesign View Post

There is no "spirit of the foundry" except in the minds of a small clique. I am a player and lifetime subscriber and my missions are no more or less valid a creation than theirs. Ultimately, the Foundry is a corporate space and its "spirit" is determined by Cryptic/PWE.
From what I understand the Foundry was actually a player request, Cryptic never had any plans before to allow players to create their own content. As such it would be fair to say that the Foundry belongs to players as it wouldn't exist without our continued effort and constant feedback.

Quote:
Originally Posted by grindisbaddesign View Post

Because Cryptic/PWE has decided for the last two seasons to introduce asian-style grinding, the answer is yes. Time and resources are in short supply, which creates the conditions where some mission types are not only desired but necessary.

If you'd like to discuss layout or mechanics of my missions, I'd love to have that dialog.

Sincerely,
Izdubar
Here's what I don't understand about everyone complaining about grinding; What exactly is the rush? I understand the desire to get the rewards, but is it worth doing stuff you don't enjoy in a mad rush to get it faster? As far as I can tell you can get everything just through normal play, its just a matter of how long it takes. Seems to me people are forcing a grind on themselves.

As for the legitimacy of this mission, it really serves no purpose to argue what should count as a 'real' mission. Cryptic has set the rules as what we can do in the Foundry with the EULA and what counts for rewards (though it would be nice if they PUBLISHED the actual formula as to how a mission qualifies). Are missions like this and those like it what were envisioned when the Foundry was first created? Maybe not, but as long as they follow the rules there is no fair reason not to allow them to be up there.
Play Star Trek: Allegiance - my first series in the Foundry
Lieutenant
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 57
# 54
12-30-2012, 02:07 PM
Just let sleeping dogs lie.

You want to know what I got from this thread, The idea of how to create a mission on how to do the daily without a fuss, and, to start looking for this mission so I can partake in its wonder.

Thats the only thing most people will get out of it.

If someone wants to enjoy the actual missions on the foundry they will do so without the need for a reward.

In fact I’m surprised that the authors haven’t complained to have the rewards removed.

If I were an author and got my work published and found out that the only reason people were reading my work was because they got paid to do so, I would feel insulted.

Well that what its come to, players are searching for missions that will take the least amount of time to complete them and they are willing to stomach any bad mission out there as long as its gives them what they want (a quick ending).


Just by taking the exploit out of something that is completely optional to the player doesn?t mean that the player will switch over to the actual content, it just means that the player will skip the foundry altogether.

People will play the missions that make them happy, and I have no doubt that the click and go mission was the most played mission in the entire foundry.

There is no point in getting upset or disturbed about it.

If you feel that your mission is good then the players will play them.

I cant see how any of these types of mission effect other players in general.

Last edited by reconalpha1; 12-30-2012 at 02:34 PM.
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 514
# 55
12-30-2012, 03:54 PM
Rewards removed? Are you daft?

I play this ENTIRE GAME for fun. All of it. Why else would I be here?
And part of that fun is getting rewards and progress.

Foundry should be no different. The 'sell' of Foundry is being able to be creative in a game where other people can enjoy what you make, and to experience weird and interesting, fresh new stuff without the usual dev cycle and limitations.

That's the point.

Finding easier and quicker ways to grind is just goofy and clearly not the intent in the game. I mean, if they intended you to log in and get dilithium for doing nothing at length, they could just have a dilithium counter based on login time and you could just walk away.
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 514
# 56
12-30-2012, 03:55 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by reconalpha1 View Post
I cant see how any of these types of mission effect other players in general.
It affects expectations. It means people start rating my missions poorly because they aren't 15 minutes long and have too much talky bits. It means people looking for cool missions have to wade through more pointless uninteresting swill because that's 99% of the listing.

(Witness City of Heroes Mission Architect system, where trying to find something that wasn't a freakin' farm was next to impossible)
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 184
# 57
12-30-2012, 04:29 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by grindisbaddesign View Post
Since @Gingie was so kind to create this rather hefty thread in my honor, I thought it would only be right to supply a rebuttal.



#1 Your definition of exploit is incorrect. You're mistaking something you personally don't like for malicious or advantageous hacking. My missions use the same primitive and limited building functions that anyone can use.

#2 Thank you. It's a definite design challenge. Though Feds on Fire was just a test case, I hope my subsequent maps will be more interesting and elaborate.

#3 He does have a point. A few Foundry authors do have a primadonna attitude and essentially petitioned for the nerfs by asking the devs to "do something" about the clickers.
And now it seems there is another mission type to crusade against. Should the devs "do something" again and further cripple this game?

#4 There is no "spirit of the foundry" except in the minds of a small clique. I am a player and lifetime subscriber and my missions are no more or less valid a creation than theirs. Ultimately, the Foundry is a corporate space and its "spirit" is determined by Cryptic/PWE.

#5 Because Cryptic/PWE has decided for the last two seasons to introduce asian-style grinding, the answer is yes. Time and resources are in short supply, which creates the conditions where some mission types are not only desired but necessary.

If you'd like to discuss layout or mechanics of my missions, I'd love to have that dialog.

Sincerely,
Izdubar
First of all, thank you or not taking my comments personally and offering some intelligent
feedback. I omitted your handle in order to prevent any personal flame wars that flare up so often. I also left my original post open so that the community could discuss your mission formula.

#1 Yes, exploit was too harsh a term to describe your missions. It is clear that you put some time and effort into them.
The old console clickers by and large did not.

#2 I did like you map design. It was very clear that you put some planning into it. The platform had a great view of the Boff arena. Thought I used Feds o Fire as the example for this post I actually played your Undine one.

#3 I have no intention of starting any crusades, its not worth the effort. As I said in a previous post I have no problem with grinder missions. In many cases the authors have made significant improvements to the Dev's patrol mission formula. Not everyone wants to play one of the multi-hour opuses, I understand that, some people just want to shoot at stuff. I'm not of the opinion that "any mission that isn't a story mission is unworthy."

#4 I disagree. The idea of what the Foundry represents has always been clear. In the Intorduction video Dstahl and others make it very clear what they hope to see from the Foundry. However, I believe that the Foundry's spirit is determined by the community that have come together around the tool.

#5 You call the recent Dilithium reward changes "Nerfs" but that is far from the truth. Dilithium is more available now than ever before. The Foundry reward wrapper now only requires one mission completion and can be repeated after 20 minutes, Fleet actions that take about 15-20 minutes reward it, Rep assignments award it, STFs reward it, Red Alerts, exploration clusters Doff assignments, the list goes on and on! It is impractical now to depend of quick and easy Foundry missions to meet your daily Dilithium cap.


I would also enjoy discussing the layout and mechanics of your missions.
Also known as Gingie(In game) Sskald(Gates of Sto-vo-kor)

Last edited by starkofthenorth; 12-30-2012 at 04:32 PM.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 146
# 58
12-31-2012, 10:52 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by starkofthenorth View Post
We all knew a new exploit would come around eventually. Well I found one and this one in particular makes me sick to my stomach.
If something in a video game is making you sick to your stomach it's probably time to go outside and get some fresh air for a little while. Or maybe seek professional help. How are other players Foundry missions even harming your gameplay experience? If someone was exploiting a bug in PVP I could at least see where the harm is, but a little grinder mission is making you ill?
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