Survivor of Romulus
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 165
# 31
01-01-2013, 12:00 PM
I don't like the auxilliary cannons so I really can not recommend them to anyone, but if you insist using them, be my guest.

My build (U.S.S. Invictus)

Fore:
2x Advanced Fleet Phaser DHC
1x Omega Plasma Torpedo Launcher

Aft:
2x Advanced Fleet Phaser Turrets
1x Kinetic Cutting Beam

Bridge officers:
Lt. Cmd. Universal: TS 1, C-SV 1, C-RF 2
Ensign Universal: EPtW 1
Lt. Tactical: TT1, APB1
Lt. Engineering: ET1,EPtS2
Cmd Science: PH1, HT2, TSS3, GW3


Engineering Consoles: Neutronium Alloy, Multidimensional Wave Function Analyser
Science Consoles: Assimilated Module, 2x Field Generator, Quantum Field Focus Controller
Tactical: Fermion Console, 3x Phaser Relay
Hangar: Advanced Danube Runabout

Shield, Engine, Deflector: MACO

Now let the flames begin.

Last edited by ascaladar; 01-01-2013 at 12:07 PM.
Ensign
Join Date: Nov 2012
Posts: 21
# 32
01-01-2013, 03:09 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ferdzso0 View Post
I read it right alright. he suggests a DPS loss, when OP clearly said he prefers offensive, DPS builds. using full aux is a great DPS loss from the turrets
I get 1300dps from each aux heavy cannon at max aux. Why increase weapon power to give my turrets a few dps, when dropping 2 gravity wells at max aux should make up for the loss of dps the turrets will give at higher weapon power.

Last edited by apocalypsex99; 01-01-2013 at 04:26 PM.
Survivor of Romulus
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 165
# 33
01-01-2013, 04:44 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by apocalypsex99 View Post
I get 1300dps from each aux heavy cannon at max aux. Why increase weapon power to give my turrets a few dps, when dropping 2 gravity wells at max aux should make up for the loss of dps the turrets will give at higher weapon power.
With 4 good phaser consoles you get slightly above 1200 DPS on the aux DHC yes, but you will starve any other weapon, including the rear turrets. For me the loss would be 250DPS on each turret and cutting beam.

I should also add that a Fleet DHC with has about 150 DPS more then the Aux DHC.


So in total I could end up with more then 1K weapon DPS loss for using Aux DHC which I hardly consider insignificant.
Ensign
Join Date: Nov 2012
Posts: 21
# 34
01-01-2013, 06:06 PM
My fleet is still at T0 in engineering, no fleet weapons for me
I see what you mean for losing dps, if you're using weapon power cannons.
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,041
# 35
01-01-2013, 11:50 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by apocalypsex99 View Post
I get 1300dps from each aux heavy cannon at max aux. Why increase weapon power to give my turrets a few dps, when dropping 2 gravity wells at max aux should make up for the loss of dps the turrets will give at higher weapon power.
you lose insane amounts of DPS from turrets at low weapon power. my turrets in an stf deal 3000 dps overall (that is your avg odyssey captain right there, only from the turrets), if I go down to minimum weapon power (63/25) I would lose half of the dealt dps. now lets say that grav wells at full aux will make up some dps too, but it wont make up 1500 dps loss (I highly doubt that it would even grant a 500 dps bonus)

also using the phasers are dps loss in themselves
Lieutenant
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 88
# 36
01-02-2013, 09:41 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ferdzso0 View Post
you lose insane amounts of DPS from turrets at low weapon power. my turrets in an stf deal 3000 dps overall (that is your avg odyssey captain right there, only from the turrets), if I go down to minimum weapon power (63/25) I would lose half of the dealt dps. now lets say that grav wells at full aux will make up some dps too, but it wont make up 1500 dps loss (I highly doubt that it would even grant a 500 dps bonus)

also using the phasers are dps loss in themselves
For what you've written I see you're missing a couple of things:
if you buy a Vesta, you're probably using a sci captain for that, and their personal abilities (like sensor scan) depends on AUX power level. That's why using aux dhc is a must. Full stop.
Then, I do not need the turrets: I don't use them. Instead, for PvE (STFs) I use a beam array to use the subsys targeting abilities, which can become useful fighting a tac cube, so I can fire both the fore aux dhc plus the beam array which with the same power level does better dmg than a turret. Then I put only one becaue my objective is just dropping the shields of my enemy. I don't use the dhcs to kill it (most of the time), I use 2 trico mines with dispersal pattern beta II, then the console helps me dropping its shields or dropping its hull doesn't matter, and with aux at 100 (i give some extra power to my shields) I get more or less 3500 dmg per sec for 12 secs. That's not bad at all
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,041
# 37
01-02-2013, 09:54 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by guglif View Post
For what you've written I see you're missing a couple of things:
if you buy a Vesta, you're probably using a sci captain for that, and their personal abilities (like sensor scan) depends on AUX power level. That's why using aux dhc is a must. Full stop.
Then, I do not need the turrets: I don't use them. Instead, for PvE (STFs) I use a beam array to use the subsys targeting abilities, which can become useful fighting a tac cube, so I can fire both the fore aux dhc plus the beam array which with the same power level does better dmg than a turret. Then I put only one becaue my objective is just dropping the shields of my enemy. I don't use the dhcs to kill it (most of the time), I use 2 trico mines with dispersal pattern beta II, then the console helps me dropping its shields or dropping its hull doesn't matter, and with aux at 100 (i give some extra power to my shields) I get more or less 3500 dmg per sec for 12 secs. That's not bad at all
sensor scan is on such a long cooldown, that you can easily time it with an aux battery, problem solved.
also, 3500 dps for 12 secs is very very low, unless you are refering to the turrets alone (in that case, it is good)

for tricobalt builds, I would not say you should not use aux, with a tricobalt build I would use the aux DHCs, I just dont like how circumstancial tricobalts are, so I just dont use them.
however even on that build I would think on how useful the aux cannons are (in this case not the aux part is questioned, but the firing arc of DHCs generally).
still, using the aux cannons on an avg dps build (DHC+turrets) is just a stupid way of losing dps
Lieutenant
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 88
# 38
01-02-2013, 12:09 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ferdzso0 View Post
sensor scan is on such a long cooldown, that you can easily time it with an aux battery, problem solved.
also, 3500 dps for 12 secs is very very low, unless you are refering to the turrets alone (in that case, it is good)
In terms of theory, yes sensor scan is on a 2 minutes cooldown... but in terms of practice, are we really sure that would be a problem? Besides the fact sensor scan is not for a single target (like attack pattern beta or delta) but it takes multiple targets in its range. This, combined with gravity well and a scatter volley, would do really nice damage
Obviously, I'm referring to PvE scenarios and, obviously, all these abilities (except CSV) are powered by aux. Sometimes, a battery isn't enough: because these abilites aren't the only ones that you use that depends by aux power: HE, Aux2SIF, TSS... these are the ones which keep you alive. You can't DPS if you blow up right? Sure even at low power levels they do something but the vesta doesn't have that much hull, and your shields will lower quickly in an intense PvP match 3vs1 (just for instance) or if the tac cube notes your shiny hull. So having some more aux power is really useful!

Quote:
Originally Posted by ferdzso0 View Post
for tricobalt builds, I would not say you should not use aux, with a tricobalt build I would use the aux DHCs, I just dont like how circumstancial tricobalts are, so I just dont use them.
however even on that build I would think on how useful the aux cannons are (in this case not the aux part is questioned, but the firing arc of DHCs generally).
still, using the aux cannons on an avg dps build (DHC+turrets) is just a stupid way of losing dps
The turnrate isn't a problem. It isn't that big problem pointing your cannons on your target thanks to its low inertia rate. I say this not based on its specs but based on an active use of that ship. Then, as for the dhc+turrets standard build, I agree with you but keep in mind this build isn't so "standard" for a ship like the vesta.
In fact this is, after all, a science ship. Sure, it can mount cannons etc etc but it's still made for sci characters: it has a sci commander, 3 weapons fore 3 aft, Subsystem targeting and the sensor analysis passive ability too.
So, think about it. It's not all about raw DPS. Although it can dps more than a cruiser and a normal sci ship it's not an escort... you are a sci. Your main objective isn't being the best dpser but the best supporter and to do this you almost Always need auxiliary power at high levels. Only with high aux you'll compensate low hull, and debuff your enemy enough to let your dps kill it. So the aux DHCs are perfect for this task. I use them an I can get probes on KASE and kill them almost immediately. If I don't have enough debuff because I'm on CD or something else... here comes trico mines. They're useful for many many tasks, I always keep them slotted.
People still don't understand that, sure, STO is mainly focused in DPS, but numbers sometimes can't express what you get in your face while you're fighting something or someone. You need to considerate practical results and those results tell me that I won't do the same DPS of an escort (which sci ship does?) but I always accomplish my objective.
Hope I didn't tire you with such a loooong endless answer but I wanted to explain things clearly. The vesta is such a wonderful ship not for its DPS (which are undoubtly higher than every other sci ship though) but for it's awesome versatility which fits perfectly a captain who wants to get a ship which can be a real compromise between sci playstile, heal capabilities, keeping your dps good. Concluding standard dhc+turret build isn't standard at all on those hybrid ships. You need to experiment a bit to find a suitable build for it. And tricobalt mines can help in this case: aux dhcs strip shields, trico mines finish the work, shortly. In PvP things may change but again you need to experiment
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 148
# 39
01-02-2013, 12:14 PM
Aux cannons are a godsend from Cryptic. Vestas can power TSS III, Grav wells, HE, scrambles, Scans, repulsors, Aux2Sif while maintaining high shield and engine power without losing out on too much damage from turrets.

If you arent going to use Aux based powers, dont fly a science ship.
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,041
# 40
01-02-2013, 12:57 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by guglif View Post
Hope I didn't tire you with such a loooong endless answer but I wanted to explain things clearly.
not at all

Quote:
Originally Posted by guglif View Post
In terms of theory, yes sensor scan is on a 2 minutes cooldown... but in terms of practice, are we really sure that would be a problem? Besides the fact sensor scan is not for a single target (like attack pattern beta or delta) but it takes multiple targets in its range. This, combined with gravity well and a scatter volley, would do really nice damage
Obviously, I'm referring to PvE scenarios and, obviously, all these abilities (except CSV) are powered by aux. Sometimes, a battery isn't enough: because these abilites aren't the only ones that you use that depends by aux power: HE, Aux2SIF, TSS... these are the ones which keep you alive. You can't DPS if you blow up right? Sure even at low power levels they do something but the vesta doesn't have that much hull, and your shields will lower quickly in an intense PvP match 3vs1 (just for instance) or if the tac cube notes your shiny hull. So having some more aux power is really useful!
I am not debating, for PVP the aux cannons are really great, however they still are not the best dps for PVP (but as I said in other topics, I can imagine many aux cannon PVP builds, however for PVE its not the best to use them)
also, I deal around 9k DPS (if someone who can actually play this game with skill, would easily do 10k DPS in my build), and barely die (only when I dont watch my shields, to be rerouted when my 2 TTs are on cooldown). the only thing that gives me a hard time is a tac cube, with an incompetent team, which cannot kill it fast enough (I am talking about minutes, so I as time is concerned, I am talking about real bad pugs to be on your team, so the tac cube is alive for long enough to give you some trouble)

Quote:
Originally Posted by guglif View Post
I
So, think about it. It's not all about raw DPS. Although it can dps more than a cruiser and a normal sci ship it's not an escort... you are a sci.
exactly, that is why I said to spec it for CC. you can deal insane DPS, even while CC, I know escorts who deal easily around 15k DPS, but they suffer with big groups, because they just do not have the tools to grab a group of those, and love to have me on team even with my lower DPS, just because I know how and when to use grav well

Quote:
Originally Posted by guglif View Post
Subsystem targeting and the sensor analysis passive ability too.
subsystem targeting is not that useful, since it is again just a dps loss, having a beam instead of a dmg dealing weapon, and it does not make up for it. also, imo sensor analysis is pretty much what makes this ship kind of OP (without it, I would not even think of saying its OP, but having it is kind of the "just a bit too much" chategory for me)




Quote:
Originally Posted by guglif View Post
Only with high aux you'll compensate low hull, and debuff your enemy enough to let your dps kill it.
in any stf (as I said, pvp is quite different, but even there you the only things that could kill me -mind you I am not PVP-ing basically, ever, only to test some ideas- were the ships, that could out manouver me, but even that is probably because I refused to bring danubes, and to use my full pve build), you pretty much do not need high aux to defend against any enemy. you can pretty much bug the gates at 1,7km, dealing highest dps possible, and the only other things that might deal similar threatening dmg are tac cubes (if you are not with idiots in a team, who deal less than 3k dps, thats not a problem either), and donatra (and there you only have to watch out for the torp spreads)

Quote:
Originally Posted by guglif View Post
People still don't understand that, sure, STO is mainly focused in DPS, but numbers sometimes can't express what you get in your face while you're fighting something or someone. You need to considerate practical results and those results tell me that I won't do the same DPS of an escort (which sci ship does?) but I always accomplish my objective
the vesta is the closest you will ever get to a sci escort, and sadly I deal more DPS than many escorts (I will not say that I deal more DPS than escorts, because I have seen the escort builds, that can actually deal DPS, not just the poof-poof that most people bring to elite stfs - tbh its kind of the stfs fault, that you can pretty much get away with 4k dps, and having 6k would make you feel great)

there, I made you an even longer answer
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