Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 891
# 11
01-02-2013, 12:40 PM
3k for sci/cruisers; 3.5k for carriers; 4k for escorts. Those are the bare minimum before other people are having to pick up your slack to make optionals. I'd say 70% of pug players don't reach those easily obtainable marks, many of them of which are complaining about other players in a particularly popular thread on these forums.

Last edited by xantris; 01-02-2013 at 12:43 PM.
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 891
# 12
01-02-2013, 12:45 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by hereticknight085 View Post
Har har har... -.-

Actual purpose behind that was because Engineers are not intended as the primary damage dealers. That's the Tactical's job.
Nah, but they are intended to be strong supplemental damage dealers. Being an engineer is no excuse for doing subpar damage to what an engineer is capable of.

I had a ENG in a odyssey cruiser in a pug KASE yesterday yelling at some other folks for being bad. I checked my damage meter and he was doing sub 1500 DPS. I told him he didn't have any right to be yelling at anyone. He said "I'm a tank, my damage doesn't matter".

If course you can't tank jack if you can't hold aggro, and you can't hold aggro if you can't do damage. On top of that, now I'm having to do an extra 1500 DPS just to make up for him being a "tank" because he can't pull his minimum DPS load, while tanking the entire time because he doesn't have a prayer of keeping threat from me.

This game is far more degrees of gray than black and white. DPS, healing, debuffing and survivability is all cross profession to some degree. The sooner people learn that the better off everyone is.

Last edited by xantris; 01-02-2013 at 12:55 PM.
Captain
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 3,553
# 13
01-02-2013, 01:05 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by hanover2 View Post
There's too much overlap in the various equipment and abilities for the roles to be as rigid as you'd like to pretend.
He wanted the basics with simple descriptions. I gave him basic and simple descriptions. The more complex overlap and such is for more advanced players who already know the basics.
It is said the best weapon is one that is never fired. I disagree. The best weapon is one you only have to fire... once.
Tired of Wasting EC and Time trying to get Superior Romulan Operative BOffs? Here's a cheap and easy way to get them, with an almost 100% chance of success.
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Career Officer
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 120
# 14
01-02-2013, 01:12 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by xantris View Post
3k for sci/cruisers; 3.5k for carriers; 4k for escorts. Those are the bare minimum before other people are having to pick up your slack to make optionals. I'd say 70% of pug players don't reach those easily obtainable marks, many of them of which are complaining about other players in a particularly popular thread on these forums.
Curious about these numbers... I think they are fairly low. For example, without activating any skills:
Unbonused Mk XII turrets (skilled but without consoles) will be around 450 DPS each.
Unbonused Mk XII beam bank around 650 DPS
Kinetic Cutting Beam: 700 DPS
Carrier Hangar Bays: 1000 DPS per bay (with all pets deployed)... normally a bit higher, but they come out to around this in the long run when you consider the relaunch time, etc. Keep them on "Attack" mode if you are counting them in your ship's DPS. Varies with playstyle and type of hangar pet, but 1000 DPS/hangar bay is a quite conservative, attainable value
Unbonused Mk XII quantum torp (skilled but without consoles) around 425 DPS

I say all this above to get to this point: consider a cruiser with a forward torp, 3 beams forward, 3 turrets and a kinetic cutting beam in the back. That's well over 4000 DPS without tac consoles or critical hits or anything.

As a point of reference, here's a breakdown of my recluse carrier (could do the same with an atrox, because i'm not adding in skills, CPT powers, etc in the values... just in-space tooltip values). I have good gear equipped (2x Purp Mk XII Quant Consoles, borg/rom/rule 62 console, 2-piece adapted MACO set bonus):
2x Mk XII Quantum Torps with 3x Purple PWO Doffs. Effective ROF is 5.4 torps per 8 secs (if you are curious about the math say so and I'll make a separate post about PWOs ROF here)... tooltip DPS is 747.6, expected pre-skill, pre-BoFF skill, pre-critical strike DPS for these torpedoes: 4037
1x Mk XI Plasma Beam. 596 DPS (will be higher with the MkXII rom experimental beam)
1x Kinetic Cutting Beam. 720 DPS
2x Mk XII Romulan Plasma Turrets. 458 DPS each. 917 for the pair.
2x Hangar Bays. 1000 DPS each. 2000 for the pair.

So... for a carrier, this is 8200 DPS before CPT abilities, BoFF abilities, or critical hits. Also, you might see a bit less if you can't keep pointed at the target for the torps (so lower in PVP). I could push these values higher with adding the rom. experimental beam or some romulan plasma science consoles.

Even if you quibble with this value or that value, any decently-fit ship, flown by any captain, should be able to get well over 5 or 6k DPS (pre-captain skill/boff ability/critical hits). Really good ones should be able to get in the 8-10k DPS range.
Captain
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 3,553
# 15
01-02-2013, 01:28 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by heresincebeta View Post
Curious about these numbers... I think they are fairly low. For example, without activating any skills:
Unbonused Mk XII turrets (skilled but without consoles) will be around 450 DPS each.
Unbonused Mk XII beam bank around 650 DPS
Kinetic Cutting Beam: 700 DPS
Carrier Hangar Bays: 1000 DPS per bay (with all pets deployed)... normally a bit higher, but they come out to around this in the long run when you consider the relaunch time, etc. Keep them on "Attack" mode if you are counting them in your ship's DPS. Varies with playstyle and type of hangar pet, but 1000 DPS/hangar bay is a quite conservative, attainable value
Unbonused Mk XII quantum torp (skilled but without consoles) around 425 DPS

I say all this above to get to this point: consider a cruiser with a forward torp, 3 beams forward, 3 turrets and a kinetic cutting beam in the back. That's well over 4000 DPS without tac consoles or critical hits or anything.

As a point of reference, here's a breakdown of my recluse carrier (could do the same with an atrox, because i'm not adding in skills, CPT powers, etc in the values... just in-space tooltip values). I have good gear equipped (2x Purp Mk XII Quant Consoles, borg/rom/rule 62 console, 2-piece adapted MACO set bonus):
2x Mk XII Quantum Torps with 3x Purple PWO Doffs. Effective ROF is 5.4 torps per 8 secs (if you are curious about the math say so and I'll make a separate post about PWOs ROF here)... tooltip DPS is 747.6, expected pre-skill, pre-BoFF skill, pre-critical strike DPS for these torpedoes: 4037
1x Mk XI Plasma Beam. 596 DPS (will be higher with the MkXII rom experimental beam)
1x Kinetic Cutting Beam. 720 DPS
2x Mk XII Romulan Plasma Turrets. 458 DPS each. 917 for the pair.
2x Hangar Bays. 1000 DPS each. 2000 for the pair.

So... for a carrier, this is 8200 DPS before CPT abilities, BoFF abilities, or critical hits. Also, you might see a bit less if you can't keep pointed at the target for the torps (so lower in PVP). I could push these values higher with adding the rom. experimental beam or some romulan plasma science consoles.

Even if you quibble with this value or that value, any decently-fit ship, flown by any captain, should be able to get well over 5 or 6k DPS (pre-captain skill/boff ability/critical hits). Really good ones should be able to get in the 8-10k DPS range.
Problem with your math: Your DPS values are about double what they should be.

You aren't taking power drain or range or target resistance into account. You also aren't taking misses or crits into account, nor are you taking in the variance in damage into account. Those are all VERY important.

Also your 1000 dps per hangar bay? Maybe with b'rels, fer'jais, or B'rothls, but your average fighters are only hitting for maybe 150-200 tops. And they aren't constantly attacking either. You also need to take into account fighters being destroyed, etc.
It is said the best weapon is one that is never fired. I disagree. The best weapon is one you only have to fire... once.
Tired of Wasting EC and Time trying to get Superior Romulan Operative BOffs? Here's a cheap and easy way to get them, with an almost 100% chance of success.
Why the Devs can't make PvE content harder.
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 891
# 16
01-02-2013, 01:34 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by heresincebeta View Post
Curious about these numbers... I think they are fairly low. For example, without activating any skills:
Unbonused Mk XII turrets (skilled but without consoles) will be around 450 DPS each.
Unbonused Mk XII beam bank around 650 DPS
Kinetic Cutting Beam: 700 DPS
Carrier Hangar Bays: 1000 DPS per bay (with all pets deployed)... normally a bit higher, but they come out to around this in the long run when you consider the relaunch time, etc. Keep them on "Attack" mode if you are counting them in your ship's DPS. Varies with playstyle and type of hangar pet, but 1000 DPS/hangar bay is a quite conservative, attainable value
Unbonused Mk XII quantum torp (skilled but without consoles) around 425 DPS

I say all this above to get to this point: consider a cruiser with a forward torp, 3 beams forward, 3 turrets and a kinetic cutting beam in the back. That's well over 4000 DPS without tac consoles or critical hits or anything.

As a point of reference, here's a breakdown of my recluse carrier (could do the same with an atrox, because i'm not adding in skills, CPT powers, etc in the values... just in-space tooltip values). I have good gear equipped (2x Purp Mk XII Quant Consoles, borg/rom/rule 62 console, 2-piece adapted MACO set bonus):
2x Mk XII Quantum Torps with 3x Purple PWO Doffs. Effective ROF is 5.4 torps per 8 secs (if you are curious about the math say so and I'll make a separate post about PWOs ROF here)... tooltip DPS is 747.6, expected pre-skill, pre-BoFF skill, pre-critical strike DPS for these torpedoes: 4037
1x Mk XI Plasma Beam. 596 DPS (will be higher with the MkXII rom experimental beam)
1x Kinetic Cutting Beam. 720 DPS
2x Mk XII Romulan Plasma Turrets. 458 DPS each. 917 for the pair.
2x Hangar Bays. 1000 DPS each. 2000 for the pair.

So... for a carrier, this is 8200 DPS before CPT abilities, BoFF abilities, or critical hits. Also, you might see a bit less if you can't keep pointed at the target for the torps (so lower in PVP). I could push these values higher with adding the rom. experimental beam or some romulan plasma science consoles.

Even if you quibble with this value or that value, any decently-fit ship, flown by any captain, should be able to get well over 5 or 6k DPS (pre-captain skill/boff ability/critical hits). Really good ones should be able to get in the 8-10k DPS range.
The only real way to measure DPS is a parser, your way leaves out a lot of factors.

But...

Yes, they are low... Minimums actually. You need approximately 15k DPS to get the average optional in an eSTF. So each player needs to be doing at least 3k damage to pull their weight. You add a bit more to escorts because that's almost all they do, and because a lot of parsed damage is AoE that gets instantly healed by generators and such.. I personally do between 10-14k in my tac escort, and the only way I fail to get optionals is if I'm not paying attention or if someone does something purposefully to fail the mission(like blowing probes on the opposite side in ISE) But as long as people aren't a detriment, that's good enough in my book.

Last edited by xantris; 01-02-2013 at 01:40 PM.
Career Officer
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 120
# 17
01-02-2013, 01:50 PM
@Xantris: yes I know that my estimates are low (when folks parse my elite STF DPS I'm alot higher) but comparing tooltip DPS is a good starting point to see the relative power between two builds. I was trying to answer the OP's question about what to expect as a baseline.

@HereticKnight: actually take a look at these 2 threads... they both make it seem that 1k DPS/hangar bay is a pretty reasonable guess (and they are estimates of the little fighters, not the more powerful Frigates/BoPs, etc): here and here

@OriginalPoster: As HereticKnight and Xantris both pointed out... I left out alot of factors that we are all aware of, but it's a pretty good starting point for comparisons. While distance and misses and target's resistance will decrease ovserved DPS vs. tooltip DPS, those factors affect every build and it's up to your playstyle to minimize their negative affects. Simarily, critical hits, captain skills, and bridge officer skills will increase observed DPS vs. tooltip DPS, but they affect every build, and it's up to you to try to maximize them.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 157
# 18
01-02-2013, 02:41 PM
Just thought I'd chime in. This is a parsed log from a few minutes ago. I've blacked out there other names. Its from a Vo'Quv carrier setup with 2x DBB in the front with a Har'Peng, and three turrents in the rear. Also, B'rotlh BoPs.

I'm not sure how accurate CombatlogParser is, but this does give a baseline for what a half descent carrier setup should be doing.

http://img688.imageshack.us/img688/6573/logparser.jpg

EDIT:
Also this captain is an engineer.
Career Officer
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 1,124
# 19
01-04-2013, 09:44 AM
Parsers are tough, you don't really know what was happening to just compare them run to run. If I put some peregrine fighters out to work in Hive Onslaught, they aren't going to be doing much damage, if I put them against CSE nanites the damage will be several times higher.

If you want a real combat log parser dump that one and use ACT, its data is so much more valuable than a simple dps.

I've been trying to log standard mission runs, CSE works well, but KASE's range is too far to capture everything. Infected works well too, but one slow ship on a generator hurts everyone else, because everyone in the group is reduced to their dps while waiting for them. I have logged a lot of fleet alerts, though getting hit with tholians drastically reduces DPS.

Last night in CSE we had 5 escorts, hitting 5.9, 6.3, 8.5, 8.6 and 11.9k DPS
Fleet alerts are much lower because of shields and timing between rounds, the 11.9 person gets reduced to 8-9 at best.
Empire Veteran
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 6,764
# 20
01-04-2013, 09:50 AM
[quote]
Quote:
Originally Posted by wolfpack12c View Post
No that is an escorts job
No, Its the Tactical Careers job to be the primary direct damage dealer.

It is the one-trick they do and the Escort is merely the best designed vessel to that purpose.

Stick a Tac-toon is a Cruiser and they still can be the Damage dealer under a good build, though not as good as the Tac/Escort pairing.

The same can be said for Science vessels. Its possible to put a tacin one and do very well, but they are still not the primary DDD.
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