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Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 374
# 31
01-04-2013, 05:49 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by echodarksided View Post
Anyone else notice on tribble how all DEVs play Tactical characters?
There's little point to playing as anything else in pve, to be honest. That's mostly what the devs do, so it stands to reason that tac would be their most popular choice.
Engineers and Science only really come into their own in pvp.
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Captain
Join Date: Nov 2012
Posts: 1,416
# 32
01-04-2013, 06:40 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by echodarksided View Post
this Issue Is As Old As Sto Pvp.

Anyone Else Notice On Tribble How All Devs Play Tactical Characters? If They All Played Engineers They Would Better Understand This Issue. I Know That Sounds Weird, Until You Think About It A Bit And Remember Engineers Rely On Bo Skills, Not Captain Skills, For All Spike Damage Regardless Of Ship.
If They Also Pvp'd They'd Understand The Most Depressing Results Of Their Power Creep
Quote:
Originally Posted by mancom View Post
Frankly, I think the only sound advice that one can give new players at this time is to stay away from PVP in STO.
Science pvp at its best-http://www.youtube.com/user/matteo716
Do you even Science Bro?
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,495
# 33
01-04-2013, 06:49 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by dantrainor View Post
There's little point to playing as anything else in pve, to be honest. That's mostly what the devs do, so it stands to reason that tac would be their most popular choice.
Engineers and Science only really come into their own in pvp.
To be fair some of the newer PvE has been built w/other professions in mind, eg NWS, Fleet Freighter escort, the Tholian space one where you can TBR NPCs away while another player turns off TBs holding the Romulan ships, etc. But, yeah generally DPS wins in PvE.
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,495
# 34
01-04-2013, 07:05 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by dontdrunkimshoot View Post
and it is. this wouldn't push the boundaries of damage, it just rearranges things slightly between the goal posts. it would just make a few things less worthless, and beam arrays better when someone puts effort into making them deal damage.

biggest reason im pushing for this is the inequity between kdf and fed cruisers tactically. you could set up a kdf cruiser to be a beam array heal boat like any fed cruiser, or you could make it a tactical force to be reckoned with, an escort replacement. cant do that on a fed cruiser, and why? theres no objective out of universe reason for it.

remember when FAW was dangerous? well normal beam arrays would be closer to that, but not quite. back in the lol faw days they were over powered, now they are pretty deeply underpowered. i see the change making them deal damage a bit more like the old FAW days, but it would only be to a single target at a time

and who doesn't think DCs need a buff? and why not make singles a more desirable weapon? the heavy single cannon already exists in game
Tbh, imo the KDF cruisers should be better tactically for damageby design than the Feds. Also, while KDF may setup repair boats, the target being repaired matters. Most KDF ships have crappy shield mods (as they should imo) and other drawbacks which make them fit the hit and run mold better and remote assistance less effective. Giving Feds additional DPS options in ships not designed for DPS has been part of the problem (see Vesta) of the power creep, just like giving KDF better consoles instead of better ships was a problem.

Yes I remember when FaW nearly never missed and a BoP could decloak behind a cruiser and it and 4 of it's cruiser friends circling the wagons would drop 1/2 the hull before decloak was over just by autofire being on. This wasn't good either.

I agree DCs need to be looked at and to a lesser extent Beam arrays, but the biggest problem w/Beams has been the power creep of defenses in general and destroyer/multirole type ships which can repair themselves making pressure dps of Beam Arrays less effective. It used to be only relatively weak Raiders could do those roles and they usually had to sacrifice CC/Debuffs/or DPS to for self repairs.
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Join Date: Jun 2012
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# 35
01-04-2013, 09:09 AM
I have no issues with balance as long as said balance is not a smokescreen to directly buff a class or vessel into doing something outside its class.

I prefer indirect buffing to weapons, adding new BOff abilities, changing firing arcs or drain mechanics, etc over the buffing of a class/vessel not designed to be the primary direct damage dealer.

Still some sense of checks and balances need to be maintained. Those Beams Arrays have the best Firing Arc in the game for example. To give them direct DHC level damage would be unfair if they kept that FA.
Richard Hamilton (1975-2014)
goodbye good friend. We will see you in the DMZ in the sky oneday, save a shot for us.
Captain
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 2,280
# 36
01-04-2013, 01:36 PM
The disparity is very easy to condense and to fix.

DHCs all fire at their full power every shot (125 - 113 - etc)
DCs fire at full power every other shot, along with all other cannon types
Beams fire at full power every fourth shot

Solution?
DHCs: penalty to weapon power for each one equipped (say -2 to -4) but lower drain to 10

Beams: Lower drain to -8 or -9 per beam OR cut firing cycle in half to mirror cannons.

Done and done.

*stealth edit*
And as for OP healing it is really OP resists that is causing the issue. Fixing that would be more...difficult due to unintended side effects (like one shots) and the entire defense/healing/tanking/buffer mechanics and numbers really need scrapped and redone. It is silly when anything in a game aside from an FPS can easily be killed in a few seconds and can heal from nothing to full in about thirty by itself. Not to mention the hard cap on resists gets banged against by any ship/build that works well due to gear and boff abilities.

Last edited by bareel; 01-04-2013 at 01:39 PM.
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Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 7,166
# 37
01-04-2013, 02:18 PM
i sort of see things as levels of infective below DHCs, and weigh their straights against that inferiority.

DHCs- near perfect, gods gift to energy weapons. deals all its damage in about a second and a half, only keeps the power it uses for half its cycle. low fireing arc -9/10

DCs- worst off, it has the DHC's disadvantage of low fireing arc, with all the power hungry, gradual, damage the other weapons deal -3/10

DBB- only real purpose is to deliver beam overloads, anything else it does is of little consequence. single cannons with CRF out dps this and have much better on target up time potential. -5/10

single cannons- sort of an even balance between DPS and fireing arc. low spike potential, each hit is very weak. damage to low to be considered on any ship that can mount and use DHCs. good at maximizing per hit effects abilities and passives. when buffed enough can seriously damage a target in about 10 seconds, helpful damage that will mater during focus fire. a cruiser can shred bops and escorts if they attack without support, but theres plenty of time for them to see this isn't going to end well and escape. -6/10

beam arrays- slightly more damage per hit then a single cannon, but slow and lazy frieing speed with much less dps. BO can be kind of spiky with it, but a DBB hits much harder. FAW is a terrible, damage reducing ability. firing it unbuffed gives you the highest dps with these, an absurd notion when you look at skills like CRF and CSV. never really going to do anything to a target unless it is alone and isolated for an extended period of time, the constant uptime with its damage will start to mater a lot then. pressure damage in a group is nearly irreverent with minimal cross healing, all kills really happen as a result of spike and debuffs at the right time. -4/10

turrets- adds additional fire power when using cannon weapons up front. cheap to power, can be the straw that can break the camels back- 9/10


the ratings arent based on what deals the best damage, just my opinion of their balance when weighing their advantage and disadvantage. for everything below a 9 out of 10, i'd make these improvements

DC- energy drain of 8, fireing arc of 90 deg
DBB- have its fireing cycle complete a second faster. result is higher dps
singles- DHC like fireing cycle.
beam arrays- have its fireing cycle compleat a second faster. result is higher dps

what these changes will effect

DC-cheaper to power overall, more usable on less maneuverable ships. might be a more go to weapon for KDF cruisers to contributeDPS more reliably, instead of having to try to act like fat DHC escorts. having the same DPS as a DHC, with more on target up time potential in the right situation will make it worth using. in the right situation.

DBB- on everything that can use them, their damage will mater more, they would have 25% more dps. they wouldn't so easily be outdone by single cannons with CRF available.

singles- more front loaded damage would improve their usefulness, and be a more even balance with their DPS, and firing arc considered. slower fed cruisers that have stronger shields and hull using this weaker, more on target up time weapon compared to their kdf cruiser counterparts, that are more maneuverable but more fragile, and mounting more damaging weapons seems like a different but balanced relationship to me.

beam arrays- they would have 25% more dps. compared to how high you can buff cannon damage with abilities thats not as much as it sounds. their pressure damage will be felt more and make a bigger difference. their damage would be like it was when FAW could hit things. it wouldn't be so auto targeting and brutal to decloaking ships, that's faw's special feature.


the result by the numbers-

DC-s mkx dps- 232, but cannon skills buff this massively. less energy hogging and more on target up time potential for highest in game dps potential when buffed. damage still not front loaded and spiky though. -8.5/10

DBB- old mkx dps- 208, new- 260, but no dps buffing skills available. have more self merit, still same BO damage. large dps on their own becase minimal tac buffs are available 9/10

singles- mkx dps-192, but cannon skills buff this massively. can spike, but not nearly as hard as DHCs. very good fireing arc -9/10

beam arrays- old mkx dps- 160, new- 200, but no dps buffing skills available. have more self merit, still same BO damage. large dps on their own becase minimal tac buffs are available -9/10


when all this is done, the most dangerous things in game wont be more dangerous. that being BO pared with DHCs, maybe even torpedoes too for the spikiest of damage. merely everything other then these things wont be god awful by comparison. escorts keep getting more and more tanky on their own, and cross healing on them makes them basically unkillable, pared with their speed and hold resistance. a buff to the other weapons is warranted, all the damage these lesser weapons cause is nearly worthless and lost in the ether of cross healing.

as an interesting result, i notice that beams would be better weapon unbuffed then cannons are after my changes, thats probably how it should be. cannons should need lots of tac stations to maximize their effect, but beams unbuffed work a bit better then cannons unbuffed, at least as far as flat dps is concerned. might need adjustment, instead of the firing cycle completing a second faster, make it only half or 3/4 a second faster.


as far as FAW goes, if the acc cant be fixed, just give it a point defense console like damage bonus to spam targets. FAW wouldn't effect the fireing speed of beams anymore, and would just be good at dealing with garbage. with its low acc it wouldn't be better at dealing damage to other player ships, even during 1v1s with no other targets around.
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Empire Veteran
Join Date: Jun 2012
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# 38
01-04-2013, 02:21 PM
Quote:
beam arrays- have its fireing cycle compleat a second faster. result is higher dps
Will this not also result in higher drain if the shoot so much as to overdrain themselves?
Richard Hamilton (1975-2014)
goodbye good friend. We will see you in the DMZ in the sky oneday, save a shot for us.
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,495
# 39
01-04-2013, 02:24 PM
W/o getting into what I think of your overall suggestions a reminder that cannons have much less effective DPS (Dem/Tet glider aside) over 5km out and should be part of the considerations.
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,495
# 40
01-04-2013, 02:39 PM
The Beam Array net boost of 25% is probably needed tbh, not adjusting based damage but firing cycle probably best option as well.

I worry about over boosting DBB b/c of the Z-axis limitations and annoying spiraling even if this means they're a 1 trick BO pony.

Honestly, w/the passive chance based repairs (Sci consoles/Rep system) I have concerns how effective turrets w/o Tet Glider or Dem procs would be and have been considering other options for my rear weapons. This is more of an issue w/passive power creep than turrets though.

W/cannons being an option on more and more ship types, I'd prefer only DHCs be front loaded w/their narrow firing arc. Prehaps (unlike other weapon types) allow single cannons to proc the weapon's proc more, eg phaser would proc every hit instead of every cycle, and reduce the number of shots, but not front load them?

Iirc the 1st FaW only effected a single Beam. What you're suggesting should ACC fix not be an option sounds similar to that, but perhaps a priority on NPCs/small targets w/a large ACC bonus and higher CRF type RoF?
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