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Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,392
# 51
01-04-2013, 01:46 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by thishorizon View Post
Oh, I'm not trying to make it personal dude. I'm just saying... There are many players out there that can pull it off no matter what ship they fly.
Pull off what exactly? I've been writing about the overall powercreep that includes ships, but isn't limited to them.

Fit a pauper, all common etc, setup like I mentioned vs like quality players in anything goes setups and be competative?
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,000
# 52
01-04-2013, 03:31 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by p2wsucks View Post
Pull off what exactly? I've been writing about the overall powercreep that includes ships, but isn't limited to them.

Fit a pauper, all common etc, setup like I mentioned vs like quality players in anything goes setups and be competative?
dude, the ships are getting better all the time....and gear too....and powers too....in all games ive ever played.... thats what happens.... things get more powerful as the game evolves...this one seems to be doing the same....which does not surprise me, and i guess i can't speak for others...but...i don't think it should surprise anyone really...

whats the point in playing the game if you cannot work towards something better? hell, i pve grind for just about everything...except my super cool McSteamie, which i dropped $10 on....but that hurt me like it would anyone i guess...

i guess what i'm trying to say, is...i'm trying to get your point. but i'm finding it hard, thats all...the game keeps going in this fashion, you can stick with the curve...or fall behind...i can only keep up with 1 toon these days and stay competitive....which sucks...because i really like playing sci too...

but really my point was....i can still take my old defiant out and pull the same kills off as i ever did vs being in my new fleet defiant...because really the difference is only 1 tac console....

or....i could rock my old fleet escort...thats what it used to be called....and do the same thing as my new SUPER COOL McSteamie...the difference there being i trade off a lt sci power for a lt eng power....

or....enter ship name here....and do the same thing as....enter ship name here.... with a little different results...

i seem to just ignore everyone with their lolspecial cooldown doff hax.... doesnt bother me at all...and it will be fixed soon anyways....matter of fact ive had several conversations with people in the past week at how they noticed my cooldowns werent reduced and why i wasnt running the doff while i could....my explanation was that i can do the same thing without it, so why even bother with stuffs like that anyways....

same with A2B builds.... i don't like them. 3 doffs, possibly 2 if you spend a lil more....just to get some cooldown reduction.....cool for you bro, i'll take my 2 lt eng powers and do something usefull for the team instead of being all selfish about my own tac cool downs...as most engineers in cruisers for some reason still focus on doing damage for same silly reason....go ahead bro, knock yourself out....but i dont think you understand the game as much as you think you do. now it does work for some people, and specific builds...thats great...but its far from being efficient from my point of view. but i will defer to drunk for cruiser builds....

so, this power creep you speak of.....its the curve of the game....and if you are not used to it over the past year and a half, and how perfect world seemed to step on the gas with it....then...well...idunno man...i seem to make enough EC just PVP grinding to buy whatever i need of the exchange....i imagine PVErs make tons more EC than me, and can buy whatever the hell they want through EC, or dilith, or convert it into zen....

so what is the real problem here? are you upset that the time you spend in the game doesnt yield the same results as it used to? well i'm sorry my old friend, but that is life. i learned that lesson in my early 20's, and decided to kick life in the balls instead of having life kick me in the balls, and cry about it.

and thats the thing! its a game! i love getting blown up! and i love having fun and killing bad guys.... (Blue team, i got your number) (Go Red team go!)

anyways, i was at work earlier, i hope i made my point a little more clearly, and a little less *******-ish.

-thrusters on full-

Last edited by thishorizon; 01-04-2013 at 03:40 PM.
Captain
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 723
# 53
01-04-2013, 04:01 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by thishorizon View Post
...

i guess what i'm trying to say, is...i'm trying to get your point. but i'm finding it hard, thats all...the game keeps going in this fashion, you can stick with the curve...or fall behind...i can only keep up with 1 toon these days and stay competitive....which sucks...because i really like playing sci too...
I miss seeing the occasional appearances of T'lexi in the queues. It's a shame really, but I understand. I can only keep up with 1 toon myself.
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,392
# 54
01-04-2013, 04:01 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by thishorizon View Post
dude, the ships are getting better all the time....and gear too....and powers too....in all games ive ever played.... thats what happens.... things get more powerful as the game evolves...this one seems to be doing the same....which does not surprise me, and i guess i can't speak for others...but...i don't think it should surprise anyone really...

whats the point in playing the game if you cannot work towards something better? hell, i pve grind for just about everything...except my super cool McSteamie, which i dropped $10 on....but that hurt me like it would anyone i guess...

i guess what i'm trying to say, is...i'm trying to get your point. but i'm finding it hard, thats all...the game keeps going in this fashion, you can stick with the curve...or fall behind...i can only keep up with 1 toon these days and stay competitive....which sucks...because i really like playing sci too...

but really my point was....i can still take my old defiant out and pull the same kills off as i ever did vs being in my new fleet defiant...because really the difference is only 1 tac console....

or....i could rock my old fleet escort...thats what it used to be called....and do the same thing as my new SUPER COOL McSteamie...the difference there being i trade off a lt sci power for a lt eng power....

or....enter ship name here....and do the same thing as....enter ship name here.... with a little different results...

i seem to just ignore everyone with their lolspecial cooldown doff hax.... doesnt bother me at all...and it will be fixed soon anyways....matter of fact ive had several conversations with people in the past week at how they noticed my cooldowns werent reduced and why i wasnt running the doff while i could....my explanation was that i can do the same thing without it, so why even bother with stuffs like that anyways....

same with A2B builds.... i don't like them. 3 doffs, possibly 2 if you spend a lil more....just to get some cooldown reduction.....cool for you bro, i'll take my 2 lt eng powers and do something usefull for the team instead of being all selfish about my own tac cool downs...as most engineers in cruisers for some reason still focus on doing damage for same silly reason....go ahead bro, knock yourself out....but i dont think you understand the game as much as you think you do. now it does work for some people, and specific builds...thats great...but its far from being efficient from my point of view. but i will defer to drunk for cruiser builds....

so, this power creep you speak of.....its the curve of the game....and if you are not used to it over the past year and a half, and how perfect world seemed to step on the gas with it....then...well...idunno man...i seem to make enough EC just PVP grinding to buy whatever i need of the exchange....i imagine PVErs make tons more EC than me, and can buy whatever the hell they want through EC, or dilith, or convert it into zen....

so what is the real problem here? are you upset that the time you spend in the game doesnt yield the same results as it used to? well i'm sorry my old friend, but that is life. i learned that lesson in my early 20's, and decided to kick life in the balls instead of having life kick me in the balls, and cry about it.

and thats the thing! its a game! i love getting blown up! and i love having fun and killing bad guys.... (Blue team, i got your number) (Go Red team go!)

anyways, i was at work earlier, i hope i made my point a little more clearly, and a little less *******-ish.

-thrusters on full-
To review, among the OP suggestions was to have 2 queues one being all commons for "new" PvPers and the other an anything goes "elite" queue. I responded saying I'd much prefer the non-elite queue since it wouldn't have the huge power creep and otherwise broken crap. I went on this would lead to "smurfing" since the easy queue would have veteran players who would turn off newer players from PvP since they'd roll them.

Things went back and forth and people started claiming the gear et al isn't significant. It now is and I described the Raiders being left behind. Quite, frankly they were being left behind @ the start of the what was then C-Store during Pay-to-Play. Around the time the TB pet spam came out they were really far in the rear view mirrior. (I'm talking vs a team of good players in the Arena). I also described other gear/ships including, but not limited to rep system bonuses, diplomacy consoles, Fleet/Zen/Lotto ships, doffs.

Power creep in general should be a concern for any game since as time goes on new players will start the game farther and farther behind in the end resulting in people not even bothering since they'd never catch up.

In this game it's been even worse since things are "balanced" around things like 99 skill point investment when it's easy to go well over that, PvE even though PvE NPC mechanics are much different so players are left to self police if at all.

Fyi, on Aux2batt it's usefull on more than just cruisers and you don't need the 2 copy version of Aux2batt to be effective. Since now it now longer shares a cooldown w/EpTX you can use EPTA to negate it's only drawback. I went back and forth w/others on this in another thread if you want more details. It's also not the worst Doff combo out there (SNBs say high) and there's a fair amount of Sci Skills which are made much better by doffs (PSW, GW, Tykens, VM) not to mention pet spam Doffs.

In summary, my point is gear matters lack of balance and steep power creep are a problem and shouldn't be dismissed.
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,000
# 55
01-04-2013, 04:22 PM
real life:

-when you are new at something, expect to suck at it.

-since when did everyone you know involved in something you relayed on actually do a good job at it?

-so, you are gonna win a drag race in your pimped out for fiesta vs that mustang.....????

-yeah, i called out of work today "sick"....winning!

-life gets easier all the time.... said no person, ever.

okay i'm done....

but really, you have had to be somewhat blind to NOT notice that gear wasn't becoming more of an impact on PVP than it was 2 years ago. i long for the days of pure piloting winning no matter what.....but then i got to thinking....this would be one of the first games that that would actually exist in, if it could.....and then i remembered who develops the game and their reputation.....

so i started grinding for the best gear available......

and...well, at least i can keep up with 1 toon.

i love trek, i love gaming, i love all of you. and dammit we will have fun and kill bad guys together if i have anything to do with it. (which seems like little to no impact, but in the past week i've coached 2 "f pvp this is bs" zone ragers into 2 players that actually now have an interest in continuing having fun with us)

-thrusters on full-
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,000
# 56
01-04-2013, 04:23 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by brandonfl View Post
I miss seeing the occasional appearances of T'lexi in the queues. It's a shame really, but I understand. I can only keep up with 1 toon myself.
damn i miss playing that toon, but she just doesnt cut it anymore.... she flies that vesta now, and is okay, but far from competitive among the top.
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,392
# 57
01-04-2013, 05:05 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by thishorizon View Post
real life:

-when you are new at something, expect to suck at it.

-since when did everyone you know involved in something you relayed on actually do a good job at it?

-so, you are gonna win a drag race in your pimped out for fiesta vs that mustang.....????

-yeah, i called out of work today "sick"....winning!

-life gets easier all the time.... said no person, ever.

okay i'm done....

but really, you have had to be somewhat blind to NOT notice that gear wasn't becoming more of an impact on PVP than it was 2 years ago. i long for the days of pure piloting winning no matter what.....but then i got to thinking....this would be one of the first games that that would actually exist in, if it could.....and then i remembered who develops the game and their reputation.....

so i started grinding for the best gear available......

and...well, at least i can keep up with 1 toon.

i love trek, i love gaming, i love all of you. and dammit we will have fun and kill bad guys together if i have anything to do with it. (which seems like little to no impact, but in the past week i've coached 2 "f pvp this is bs" zone ragers into 2 players that actually now have an interest in continuing having fun with us)

-thrusters on full-
Power creep isn't about experience, it's about never being able to catch up for those who come in late or take a break and are left behind. This isn't about life is easy or hard, this is peoples' entertainment. People aren't going to want to play much less spend $ on something they'll never catch up on. Power creep 1st started w/the old C-Store, now sadly it's worse w/all the more imbalances and time gated means of aquiring things.

The car analogy doesn't work. A more appropriate analogy would be to ask a Formula 1 driver in a Yugo to beat another Formula 1 driver in a top of the line car.

Again, this started w/people being dismissive regarding the impact gear et al now has on PvP. It's not the 20% or less, it's potentionally much more. How much fun do you think it is to play against placate passives, snb doffs, et al?

People can't expect new players to think gear doesn't matter, then get confused for being scolded for using x, y, and z.

This discussion reminds me of when C-Store ships came out and people tried to claim the C-Store ships weren't really any better than the other options.
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,000
# 58
01-04-2013, 05:24 PM
still, trying to grasp your position, just can't get there friend.

i think we will have to agree to just disagree on this one.
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,392
# 59
01-04-2013, 05:26 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by thishorizon View Post
still, trying to grasp your position, just can't get there friend.

i think we will have to agree to just disagree on this one.
Fair enough.
Captain
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 723
# 60
01-04-2013, 05:28 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by p2wsucks View Post
Power creep isn't about experience, it's about never being able to catch up for those who come in late or take a break and are left behind. This isn't about life is easy or hard, this is peoples' entertainment. People aren't going to want to play much less spend $ on something they'll never catch up on. Power creep 1st started w/the old C-Store, now sadly it's worse w/all the more imbalances and time gated means of aquiring things.

The car analogy doesn't work. A more appropriate analogy would be to ask a Formula 1 driver in a Yugo to beat another Formula 1 driver in a top of the line car.

Again, this started w/people being dismissive regarding the impact gear et al now has on PvP. It's not the 20% or less, it's potentionally much more. How much fun do you think it is to play against placate passives, snb doffs, et al?

People can't expect new players to think gear doesn't matter, then get confused for being scolded for using x, y, and z.

This discussion reminds me of when C-Store ships came out and people tried to claim the C-Store ships weren't really any better than the other options.
The only thing that is really impossible for a newcomer to get off the bat would be Rep-based gear and passives (assuming they are complete new-comer to the game and not simply PvP). The Starbase stuff is accessible by simply joining an established fleet. Nearly everything else is obtainable rather quickly. I've never been good at making EC, so I'm still playing catch-up there, but I have never felt disadvantaged because I have MkXI instead of MkXII.

As much as I hate the power-creep in this game, denial of opportunity isn't YET a big issue. I do, however, see the potential for that to become a problem in the not too distant future.

As Horizon pointed out, I run a farily Vanilla build, with my only special console being the Subspace Jump. It is still possible for skill to overcome gear "defficencies" (I still feel giving up constant bonuses for several activatable powers with long cooldowns is a fool's bargain. It really only becomes better when a coordinated team is spamming said abilities... not too mention grossly unfun for the opposition). Knowing your role and being good at it is still, usually, preferable. IMO.

Edit: As far as ships go, yes there are several ships that are vastly superior to anything that came before them. That does not mean they are useless. I only gave up my DSSV, in favor of a Wells, rather recently. I did this for the turnrate though, not because it has a superior BOFF layout or console slots. In fact, I preferred the console slots on my FDSSV much more than the Wells.

Last edited by brandonfl; 01-04-2013 at 05:34 PM.
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