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Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,015
# 41
01-04-2013, 01:59 PM
I think firing cycle is the correct angle to take on these because pretty much every build I run has weapon power overcapped so far that the drain doesn't really factor in the same way. Nobody's drain is truly starting at 125 anymore.
Empire Veteran
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 5,959
# 42
01-04-2013, 02:15 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by bitemepwe View Post
Will this not also result in higher drain if the shoot so much as to overdrain themselves?
im pretty sure the cycles would just cycle faster, with no difference to how they work curently

Quote:
Originally Posted by p2wsucks View Post
The Beam Array net boost of 25% is probably needed tbh, not adjusting based damage but firing cycle probably best option as well.

I worry about over boosting DBB b/c of the Z-axis limitations and annoying spiraling even if this means they're a 1 trick BO pony.
with my changes, bringing DBB or single heavy escorts into an escort duel would quite likly be kinda cheep and overly effective, but in an arena environment you would be a fool not to have DHCs instead.


Quote:
Originally Posted by p2wsucks View Post
Honestly, w/the passive chance based repairs (Sci consoles/Rep system) I have concerns how effective turrets w/o Tet Glider or Dem procs would be and have been considering other options for my rear weapons. This is more of an issue w/passive power creep than turrets though.
before i started parsing logs i thoughts turrets were so weak that they were kinda pointless and proboly not even needed and would make no difference if you didn't have them. but i was surprised at the % chunk of your damage they tend to deal, and they are fired constantly. they help more then most people think, and are fine as is.


Quote:
Originally Posted by p2wsucks View Post
W/cannons being an option on more and more ship types, I'd prefer only DHCs be front loaded w/their narrow firing arc. Prehaps (unlike other weapon types) allow single cannons to proc the weapon's proc more, eg phaser would proc every hit instead of every cycle, and reduce the number of shots, but not front load them?
singles being more front loaded is not going to be nearly as shield crushing as DHC damage. it might not even make a difference, unless someone is badly damaged. then they will actually be able to finish something off, something they currently have a huge problem with. kdf cruisers can use DHCs, very well in fact, so its not just escorts. fed cruisers are just being thrown a bone.


Quote:
Originally Posted by p2wsucks View Post
Iirc the 1st FaW only effected a single Beam. What you're suggesting should ACC fix not be an option sounds similar to that, but perhaps a priority on NPCs/small targets w/a large ACC bonus and higher CRF type RoF?
what i imagine beams looking like after what i proposed is looking like they have FAW on all the time, but only shooting the ship you target of course. when you use FAW, it wouldnt effect the firing rate at all and hit random targets at about 75% accuracy. i propose adding the same damage bonus point defense console gets to spam, so even though it's acc sucks its more effective against spam. currently with its acc problem its crap at doing the only thing its good for.

potentially, if you combined a hold with FAW3, when theres only 1 person around, you would get a CRF effect with the new beams and be quite damaging. i could see an escort build trying to do that with DBBs and a TB, or an excelsior running EWP and a TB trying to do that with beam arrays. still thats very situational, you 2 would need to be alone or it goes to waste.

Quote:
Originally Posted by redricky View Post
I think firing cycle is the correct angle to take on these because pretty much every build I run has weapon power overcapped so far that the drain doesn't really factor in the same way. Nobody's drain is truly starting at 125 anymore.
also, as soon as anyone talks about buffing beams, everyone goes sidewise on how that will effect BO damage. with just fireing cycle sped up per shot damage is unchanged, avoiding that problem
______________________________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by lordlalo View Post
I just wanted to say, I've never seen a more disturbing avatar
the pvp build and help thread
gateway links(should actually work now) -->Norvo Tigan, Telis Latto Ruwon, Sochie Heim, Solana Soleus
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,392
# 43
01-04-2013, 02:42 PM
Regarding the ship types and cannons, currently there are Carriers (kdf), Sci Ship (Fed), Cruisers (mostly KDF, some Fed/neutral), Escorts, Destoyers, Raiders that can all use cannons. This is why I'm concerned about not leaving DHCs w/their limited effective range and firing arc as the primary weapon for massive damage and prefer other energy weapons have other niches. Front loading single cannons when pretty much every ship type has a varient that can use them concerns me for the same reason the old FaW did especially concidering potential Tet Glider/Dem/Plasma Console procs.

The DBB comment of mine is purely an effort to avoid annoying things on my part.

I agree about turrets to an extent. I think there may be issues of turrets when considered w/the 2.5% repair procs on sci consoles and the critH repair proc from the rep system negating a fair amount of damage. To be fair, Dem, Tet Glider, Plasma Sci console proc and the # of CritHs from turrets could more than make up for this.

Thx for clearing up the FaW thing.
Empire Veteran
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 5,959
# 44
01-04-2013, 03:19 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by p2wsucks View Post
Regarding the ship types and cannons, currently there are Carriers (kdf), Sci Ship (Fed), Cruisers (mostly KDF, some Fed/neutral), Escorts, Destoyers, Raiders that can all use cannons. This is why I'm concerned about not leaving DHCs w/their limited effective range and firing arc as the primary weapon for massive damage and prefer other energy weapons have other niches. Front loading single cannons when pretty much every ship type has a varient that can use them concerns me for the same reason the old FaW did especially concidering potential Tet Glider/Dem/Plasma Console procs.

The DBB comment of mine is purely an effort to avoid annoying things on my part.

I agree about turrets to an extent. I think there may be issues of turrets when considered w/the 2.5% repair procs on sci consoles and the critH repair proc from the rep system negating a fair amount of damage. To be fair, Dem, Tet Glider, Plasma Sci console proc and the # of CritHs from turrets could more than make up for this.

Thx for clearing up the FaW thing.
everyone of those ship types you mentioned has at least 1 that can use DHCs too. with the beam array dps buff, the single canon buff is pretty tame really. it takes more then just the front loaded style to be effective. lots of buff stacking, positioning, and timing are required for them to be effective. or else its getting hit with any other type of damage.
______________________________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by lordlalo View Post
I just wanted to say, I've never seen a more disturbing avatar
the pvp build and help thread
gateway links(should actually work now) -->Norvo Tigan, Telis Latto Ruwon, Sochie Heim, Solana Soleus
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,392
# 45
01-04-2013, 03:34 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by dontdrunkimshoot View Post
everyone of those ship types you mentioned has at least 1 that can use DHCs too. with the beam array dps buff, the single canon buff is pretty tame really. it takes more then just the front loaded style to be effective. lots of buff stacking, positioning, and timing are required for them to be effective. or else its getting hit with any other type of damage.
Yes, but the 45 degree arc limit of DHCs takes much more effort to bring them to a target and then quickly switch to another target for many of those ship types. 180 arc makes it much easier to bounce around w/o having to adjust a ship's vector in a timely manner. It also makes it more difficult to fly defensively to avoid the forward arc.

I could see where 3 ships using the single cannons w/tet glider and or Dem/Plasma procs and CVS would be too much pressure dps for ships not designed w/that kind of pressure dps in mind. Though tbh I'm still not exactly certain of the mechanics behind CVS w/single cannons since I rarely use them. I have this concern as things are now w/o the front loading.

Imo, Sci ships shouldn't be capable of that kind of pressure dps, that should be for cruisers. Sci pressure dps should come from torps and debuffs imo. Perhaps w/Beams after a long time of Sci ship damage passive build up.
Lieutenant
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 97
# 46
01-04-2013, 05:21 PM
Ok, I'll risk the ire of this crowd and say I DON'T GET IT.

Can somebody explain why firing cycles are such a big deal? In terms a complete noob might understand?

Here's what I see:

DHC: 1sec Cycle, 2sec Recharge
DC: 2sec Cycle, 1sec Recharge

So, is it just the increased damage of DHCs that make that firing cycle so superior to DCs? Otherwise the theoretical number of cycles is identical over the course of any period of time.

That is... 2+1 is the same as 1+2... isn't it?

So, what am I missing here?
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,392
# 47
01-04-2013, 05:24 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by pantsmaster916 View Post
Ok, I'll risk the ire of this crowd and say I DON'T GET IT.

Can somebody explain why firing cycles are such a big deal? In terms a complete noob might understand?

Here's what I see:

DHC: 1sec Cycle, 2sec Recharge
DC: 2sec Cycle, 1sec Recharge

So, is it just the increased damage of DHCs that make that firing cycle so superior to DCs? Otherwise the theoretical number of cycles is identical over the course of any period of time.

That is... 2+1 is the same as 1+2... isn't it?

So, what am I missing here?
The smaller the damage cycle the higher the burst. Atm, it's very difficult to kill a target based on pressure damage alone, bursts and debuffs are needed. Also, the smaller the damage cycle the less time is needed to maintain a target in the 45 degree arc.
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 2,883
# 48
01-04-2013, 05:39 PM
also you start getting power back as soon as the weapon is done firing, so you get the power back 1 sec faster with DHC.
Empire Veteran
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 5,959
# 49
01-04-2013, 05:42 PM
dhc cycle

[shot__shot________]
{energy___}


dc, everything else cycle

[shot_shot_shot_shot]
{energy___________}




the DHC

-deals all its damage quicker, so you don't HAVE to be in arc the whole frieing cycle

-returns its energy after the last shot, not at the end of the cycle. the damage of each individual shot is based at the weapons power level you have the server tic the shot is fired
______________________________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by lordlalo View Post
I just wanted to say, I've never seen a more disturbing avatar
the pvp build and help thread
gateway links(should actually work now) -->Norvo Tigan, Telis Latto Ruwon, Sochie Heim, Solana Soleus
Captain
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 9,272
# 50
01-04-2013, 07:51 PM
edit: Ignore what I said. I'm trying to do so...
Willard the Rat, Reman, F.T'varo - Rave, J.Trill, Kar'Fi - Mysk, Gorn, Varanus
Maal, Klingon, Mogh - Vegar, Orion, Marauder
Nivuh, Ferasan, B'rel - Venit, Lethaen, M.Qin - Kopor, Nausicaan, Guramba

Last edited by virusdancer; 01-04-2013 at 11:13 PM.
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