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Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 4,037
# 21
11-13-2012, 03:10 AM
It's a very good read.
I like it.

I'd like to add that there would have probably been an after-action anlysis of the conflict with the Gorn.
And I assume some Klingons would have probably realized there and then that they would have fared better with their own EW-ships against the Gorn Fleet Support ships.
While I think it's likely that the counterargument "they won nontheless" would have been seen valid by some, my guess is work on an EW-heavy ship would have been started before conflict with the Federation, at least unoficially.
Those who saw the conflict with the Gorn as a foreshadowing of things to come would probaly have wanted something in their back-pocket when the time came.
Of course a fleet-wide deployment would still take time.


After reading through the Haynes Owners' Workshop Manual on the Bird of Prey, I'd like to add a few bits and pieces about that ship and why I think it wouldn't make too much sense to use a BoP.
There is a chapter on a BoP's sensors and it appears that the BoP's long-range sensors are basically:
Identify a ship and indicate where it's heading.
Anything beyond that is handled by shortrange sensors.

There is appearently a way to convert the BoP into a scout vessel, however it means ripping out the torpedo launcher and putting long-range sensors in its place.
However that does not affect any other of the ship's systems, for example the BoP is never used for missions that last longer than about a month.
Even though the ship itself is capable of them, the supplies of fresh food aboard don't last beyond that.
And appearently the KDF has never felt the need to test whether the reclamation system that could be used to supply the crew with non-fresh food is up to the job...or whether the crew would go nuts from eating reclamated food.

There is also an intersting bit on the role of a science in the Klingon fleet, that would apply to STO just as much:

Science Station:
"The science station provides a constant stream of information from the ship's sensors, with a particular emphasis on the condition of any nearby vessels which Klingons always consider to pose a threat.
During battle, the science officer has the primary responsibility for monitoring the condition of enemy vessels, including the nature on an enemy's weapons and the condition of their engines.
The science officer provides recommendations to the captain and tactical officer. this data is automatically shared with the tactical station, but is accessed at a lower menu level. [whatever that means] The dedicated computers also provide analysis of stellar phenomena that may pose a threat to the ship, for the long- and short-range probes and the ship's transporter systems."

Science Officer:
"It is a misconception that Klingons have no interest in science; it's simply that they are most interested in the kind of science that can be used on combat.
The sciecen officer is a vital member of the command crew and is responsible for interpreting all the sensor data that the ship collects.
This is vital when dealing with unfamiliar stellar phenomena that could pose a threat to the ship or render the cloaking device ineffective.
Before teleporting [I have no idea why they use that term here] to a planet of landing on the surface, the science officer will assess the safety of the atmosphere and make recommendations about the best possible landing site.
In combat, he or she will advise on the condition of enemy vessels and collects as much data as possible on their performance, which is then shared with the weapons and engineering officers in order to devise effective tactics"
Lieutenant
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 54
# 22
11-15-2012, 03:18 PM
This is certainly a worthy proposal in my eye. For starters no matter how warlike any race is, war can not be fought without weapons. And weapons need to be thought up, designed, discovered, tested, and implemented. New energy sources found, new materials integrated, new technologies developed.

I also agree that any such ship dedicated to exploration and procurement would be properly fitted for a combat role, though as a (slightly) more secondary role.

I could see this ship as actually being an interesting excuse for a Klingon side version of the new vesper. Though I would be disappointed if they just cloned the consoles and abilities over rather than finding a more Klingon flavored counterpart. For example making it a second ship with the enhanced cloak, ECM package, and enhanced targeting sensors.

Or perhaps a battle cloak that still retains some of the protective quality of ship shields- running at half energy level and with 50% standard bleedthrough while active instead of the normal 10%. Enough to absorb some punch, enhancing survival chances while revealed while still leaving the ship somewhat vulnerable during those critical times of cloak and decloak or when revealed. ... And of course returning to the 10% bleedthrough while out of cloak.
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 4,037
# 23
12-04-2012, 08:36 AM
I've got a question to those who still read this thread:

in the other thread bluegeek proposed a change to the configuration:
by giving it a 3rd tactical instead of a 3rd engineering console the ship would be more of a "fight and run ship" than "a stand and fight ship".

Back then my response was that I thought the ship's purpose was to return home with its information and that the engineering console would also represent the changes to the ship that led to its use as a long-range ship.

What do you folks think/feel about this?

Which persepctive makes more sense for a Klingon ship?
Lieutenant
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 54
# 24
12-04-2012, 11:18 AM
Hmm... Personally i think the additional engineering slot makes more sense as a scout, no matter the secondary role, is primarily a support craft and point man. So before anything else (even if marginally) it should be geared towards three chief facets- information gathering, communication, and speed/endurance.

After all it is a scout's job to not only find the information, but also to escape or otherwise find a way to report what has been discovered. Combat would be considered through a 'target of opportunity' basis, or as a function of support.
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Empire Veteran
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 6,764
# 25
12-04-2012, 11:41 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by misterde3 View Post
I've got a question to those who still read this thread:

in the other thread bluegeek proposed a change to the configuration:
by giving it a 3rd tactical instead of a 3rd engineering console the ship would be more of a "fight and run ship" than "a stand and fight ship".

Back then my response was that I thought the ship's purpose was to return home with its information and that the engineering console would also represent the changes to the ship that led to its use as a long-range ship.

What do you folks think/feel about this?

Which persepctive makes more sense for a Klingon ship?
I believe the person below is correct. A scouts job is information first, fight second.

Quote:
Originally Posted by espiritas View Post
Hmm... Personally i think the additional engineering slot makes more sense as a scout, no matter the secondary role, is primarily a support craft and point man. So before anything else (even if marginally) it should be geared towards three chief facets- information gathering, communication, and speed/endurance.

After all it is a scout's job to not only find the information, but also to escape or otherwise find a way to report what has been discovered. Combat would be considered through a 'target of opportunity' basis, or as a function of support.
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Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 4,037
# 26
01-04-2013, 05:11 AM
Hey thanks, I sorta missed your post.

Does anyone have any idea for a special function assuming a ship like this became available at Lt.G and not B.G.?
Commander
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 460
# 27
01-04-2013, 08:18 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by misterde3 View Post
Hello, since the first thread on this matter

http://sto-forum.perfectworld.com/sh...d.php?t=374791

had to be put down due to the fact it had become slightly smelly this is the 2d pass on this matter.

Proposal Klingon Scout ships

For those of you who might have an objection to this idea, I have tried to anticipate those objections as best I can and included them in my proposal.

"Klingons don't have scientists"
This is wrong.
Since the TOS episode "Day of the Dove" we know Klingon warships carry science officers.

"But Mara was Kang's wife"
True, but "A Klingon's life is his work not his family." -Klag
So it is very unlikely she got that position had she not been suited for it or had there been no need for it on a Klingon Battlecuiser.
There was also a science station on the cruiser "Pagh" in TNG "A Matter of Honor" so it's not out of place on a Klignon warship.

"Klingons are conquerors, not explorers"
While Klingons enjoy conquering quite a lot, they have colonies on various worlds that don't seem to have any indiginous population.
And if a world had one, how did the Klingons find that planet in the first place?

Klingons do go out into space to investigate solar systems.
They do so to see if there are planets that are suitable for colonization or have exploitable resources.
If those worlds are populated they might become subjects of the Klingon Empire when warships arrive to conquer them.
Asteroids can contain valuable materials that can be mined via small mining bases constructed in or near them.
Klingons may investigate nebulae to see if they can be used as power sources etc.

For this they need ships with scientific equipment.
Sure Klingon applications of these scientific systems would be somewhat more "practical" than the way Starfleet would do things but the general functionality would be comparable.

For example Starfleet would survey a mountain to learn something about the age and history of a planet.
Klingons would survey the same mountain to see if it contains valuable minerals.

Starfleet would investigate flaura and fauna to learn something about the way evolution occured on the planet.
Klingons would check for hazards and investigate whether flaura and fauna would make them a good foodsource for a possible colonization.

A Starfleet geologist would analyze the tectonic stability of an area out of interest.
A Klingon geologist would check whether an area is stable enought for a colony, a mine or whether it is suitable for a geothermal powerplant.

Different goals, similar means.
Klingons would probably have ships more suited for long-range scouting missions compared to their battlecruisers.
Relative to their size, these vessels would have greater fuel and material reserves (spare parts) for independent operations.
They would probabaly have more dedicated sensor equipment and far less science labs of any kind than their federation counterparts.
Crew size and armament would be limited due to the need to carry the sensors, supplies etc.

So how do Klingons find new worlds to colonise or conquer?
How do they track enemy fleets?
How do they provide jamming and counter-jamming in battle?

"A sharp blade is useless without a sharp eye"- Koloth in
"Blood Oath"


What's still missing from the KDF roster is a military scout.


"But those are not canon"
Is that so?
The Raptor was actually called "scout ship" in "Sleeping Dogs".
Kruge's Bird of Prey was called that as well.
In the unremastered version of TOS there was also a Klingon scout ship.
There is also soft-canon reference to Klingon scouts which were 1/3rd the size of a contemporary cruiser.
http://memory-beta.wikia.com/wiki/Klingon_scout_vessel
So it's consistent those are not shuttlecraft but starships in their own right.

By the 24th century it seems the Klingons were still using scouts even though their class remains unknown.
http://en.memory-alpha.org/wiki/Klingon_scout_ship

Please note that since the crew of DS9 did not just refer to them a "Bird of Prey" it must be a seperate
class while the Bird of Prey was no longer used as a scout.

In the other thread, jnohd asked whether the loadout defines a Klingon ship is a scout and not its class.
I though about that and it seems that is is also not the case.
In the DS9 Episodes "Dramatis Personae" we see a Klingon battlecruiser that was sent on a bio survey mission.
The episode never refers to it as a scout.

"Shut up and use the BoP, it's got universals"
Despite this, the BoP is ill-equipped since it lacks the science consoles to do all these things.
In STO "science" does not exclusively equal "research", it equals space for good sensors, jamming equipment etc.
A ship with proper science capabilities of Klingon design is simply missing.

"So you want a Klingon copy of a Fed science ship"
No, what I propose is something seperate from science ships.
I'd like to propose a ship derived from Raptors.
Less guns, more electronic warfare.
Federation designs are pretty much derived from cruisers.
Thus a Klingon scout design would be smaller than an average Federation science ship but more maneuverable.

Here are example stats:

Tier 5 Military Scout.

Commander Science
Lieutenant Commander Science
Lieutenant Engineering
Lieutenant Tactical
Ensign Tactical

Crew: 150
Turnrate: 15
Hull: 33,000
Shield mod: 1.0
Weapons 3/2
No Subsytem targeting
Sensor Analysis
Can use Cannons
Cloak

Consoles:
Engineering:3
Science:4
Tactical:2
Bonus Power:
+5 Engines
+10 Aux


Aestetically I'd propose a Raptor with visible sensor arrays along its hull.
There is no need for any complex changes to an existing Raptor model so this would be rather simple to implement.
Klingons are not so one dimesional, yes warrior culture is glorified by Klingon Empire, but not all Klingons are members of the warrior class, many are simple farmers, or miners, and other occupations. The Klingon Empire was even briefly a democracy for a time.

As Jadzia Dax points out Klingons can be as varied as any other race, and that includes curiosity. Especially if they work for II (Imperial Intelligence). That's like the Klingon Obsiden Order.

Interestingly Imperial Intelligence Officers can't be challenged like regular KDF officers, so if an II officer does something to insult your honor one can't demand a fight, you just have to take it.

I can see II officers having scout ships or regular science ships, because like any other intelligence gathering group, they want to know everything
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 4,037
# 28
01-05-2013, 03:16 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by lordgyor View Post
Klingons are not so one dimesional, yes warrior culture is glorified by Klingon Empire, but not all Klingons are members of the warrior class, many are simple farmers, or miners, and other occupations. The Klingon Empire was even briefly a democracy for a time.

As Jadzia Dax points out Klingons can be as varied as any other race, and that includes curiosity. Especially if they work for II (Imperial Intelligence). That's like the Klingon Obsiden Order.

Interestingly Imperial Intelligence Officers can't be challenged like regular KDF officers, so if an II officer does something to insult your honor one can't demand a fight, you just have to take it.

I can see II officers having scout ships or regular science ships, because like any other intelligence gathering group, they want to know everything
Thanks, I know that.
All of it.
I've read "The Art of the Impossible", "Diplomatic Implausibility", "Tales of the Dominion War", "The Left Hand of Destiny" pt. 1 & 2, "Diplomatic Implausibility", "The Brave and the Bold" pt. 1 & 2, the IKS Gorkon Novel Series, most of the "Vanguard" novels, etc.

I've also always said the Klingons are not a "Boom-Boom-Faction".
And if you only construct you fictional species from cliches, you don't get a culture, you get a farce without any depth.

However the thing you might want to keep in mind is that we play as part of the Klingon military, the KDF.
Which is dominated by warriors, who will of course think like warriors.
We don't play II, not to mention how much the KDF despises II.
Have a look at RL militaries and see how few really purely civilian "vehicles" (as a general term) they have and operate in the field.
The KDF has a whole lot more in common with current RL militaries than the fairy tale Starfleet and the military uses units with military applications.

In addition I'd like to ask you to have a look at the recent "Haynes Owner's Workshop Manual" for the Klingon Bird of Prey, which clearly explains how a starship is ordered and designed.
Great houses place an order to a renwl' (architect) that is assigned to them.
The houses have specific expectations what their ships are supposed to be capable of and the renwl' has to somehow design as ship that actually works from their input.
This can sometimes lead to a duel since the house representatiives tend to have somewhat unrealistic expectations and demand overgunned ships without any balance etc.
To quote from the book:
"It is a position of great honor since it is one of the rare roles that allows a common civilian to tell a noble warrior that he is wrong."

In other terms: the warriors (at least to some degree) even call the shots when it comes to ship design.
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,375
# 29
01-05-2013, 05:35 AM
I support this ship as well but think it will definatly need a cloaking device so it can skip past enemy lines to scout or carry out surveillance
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 514
# 30
01-05-2013, 07:51 AM
What really chaps me is that the Gorn science ships are for-pay copies of free Fed science ships... with worse shields.


So you pay a bunch of cash for weaker shields and a bonus console you may or may not use, because there aren't any other similar ships kdf-side.
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