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Starfleet Veteran
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 3,339
# 71
01-05-2013, 05:06 PM
Just try the test I proposed. Seriously.
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Empire Veteran
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 7,176
# 72
01-05-2013, 05:13 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by mavhax View Post
I know more about DPS in my pinky toe than you've probably ever dealt there.

I -have- done testing of Cannons vs Beams.

And for fed cruisers, beams are your best bet for damage dealing, due to several overriding factors in 5v5. Especially Range.

KDF cruisers DHCs are better because they operate on average with more tac skills, and the ships are much more agile. However their sustained durability is not what a Fed Cruisers's is.

Which DDIS should know all to well by now.

Also LOL if you think a bortas is better with DHC than beams.

The bortas is garbage either way. But it's less so with beams.
the bortas is basically a galaxy X, only slightly less fail.

only the fleet vorcha has a large amount of tac stations, other kdf cruisers top out at LT for tactical, and might get an extra tac ensign. its the maneuverability and DHC usability that more then make up for their lower number of, or quality of tac station. before doffs, when they used cannons they had pretty bad up time on their 1 available canon ability slot, but now theres several ways to put that at global, doffs have been the best thing that ever happened to kdf cruisers. to fed cruisers too, but to a smaller extent. they cant make up for the terrible maneuverability and inferiors weapons.

i KNOW singles work better then beams, at least on TLC tac equipped fed cruisers. from watching them in action and parsing logs. the benefit from using them with DEM3 alone pushes them far out in front for effective damage dealing. often i have swapped to CSV, stayed a little ways back, and had it always on carriers, eliminating pets as they launched. singles and turrets can direct their cone of fire just about anywhere easily.


remember, i use kdf cruisers as a judgment baseline. fed cruisers ability to deal pressure or effective damage is an order of magnitude lower, due to the inferiority of the available weapons, with their advantages and disadvantages not being balanced correctly.
gateway links-->Norvo Tigan, Telis Latto Ruwon, Sochie Heim, Solana Soleus
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,427
# 73
01-05-2013, 05:19 PM
There isn't really anything wrong with cannons, I don't know where all these threads have come from lately. People just see the cannon numbers and forget that without very precise timing and the work of their team, those cannons might as well be pea shooters.

Healing and resists in STO outstrip damage by a substantial margin. If you play a Sci/(x) or an Engie snoozer properly you'll never fall to a lone cannonscort (at least a Tac) in a one-on-one. Damage buffs with the power to kill just don't come off cooldown nearly as frequently as super powerful BOff-level resists (let alone captain powers).

I can understand most aren't interested in this aspect, but it's worth saying that in 5 v 5 Arenas too much cannons can become a liability, espesh Fed-side. Without grade-A quality Sci wizardry you won't down targets fast enough to justify the durability penalty. A good sweet spot for a meat-and-taters team comp has been two cannonscorts in my experience. If you want more you really need to have a game plan sussed out.

Tactical beamboats are fine, my only real beef is with the lack of solid powers since FAW is so underwhelming. You give up heavy burst damage for the ability to tolerate CC (in a way an escort can't) and not require as much of an arc. I'd say that's balanced to me.

vids and guides and stuff

[9:52] [Zone #11] Neal@trapper1532: im a omega force shadow oprative and a maoc elite camander and here i am taking water samples

Last edited by shimmerless; 01-05-2013 at 05:22 PM.
Starfleet Veteran
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 3,339
# 74
01-05-2013, 05:22 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by shimmerless View Post
[...]
Tactical beamboats are fine, my only real beef is with the lack of solid powers since FAW is so underwhelming. [...]
So what solid boff power for beams do you have in mind?
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Promote what you love, instead of bashing what you hate.
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Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 127
# 75
01-05-2013, 05:23 PM
Try singles on a non LTC tac cruiser.

It becomes a whole nother ball game then.

Or use beams on the excels for abit with something that isn't acc2 X beams have a very high innate accuracy, which ruins their output to have double acc on them compared to Cannons.

Also, when you don't run Aux to batt on everything beams suddenly become more appealing as you only have 3 tac slots to work with on an Excels.
Cannons to make them work are very boff intensive.
They are also very very zone control dependent.

You're trading away the ability to mount Extends, and RSP (while keeping ETPS3, and an EPTS1 and a Plas3) on your Excels in order to double your tac skills.

And you're wondering why suddenly your single cannon excelsior is keeping up? You're creating the perfect storm for cannon setups there.

I built my Excels with the idea it will have to do team support. As such it only has room for 3 tac slots. Aux to batt can't fit on it, because I would then have to make some pretty serious cuts in my durability, in order to be able to assist team mates regularly.

That's where beam boats excel. Is their ability to do damage while being great support monsters.

DHCs are skill hogs. You end up with a very selfish and fragile ship in the long run to mount them on a cruiser.

In your case you ate 2 LT eng skills, and all your tac slots.
I ate....... my tac slots. For TT, BO2, BO3, or TT, APD1, BO3, TT1, FAW2 FAW3 I can throw down significant burst when necessary with that setup. Or I can maintain decent pressure while overcapped (I run at like 155 weapon power on my excels), or clear spam. With a weapon battery spiked, on a setup Kill Shot from our sci, I can load down a 15 to 30k BO2, and easily that, and change with BO3. At the Right Time. A Beam tac cruiser is what you run when you have a Scort on your team already, and healthy CC. BO2 *weapon bat* BO3. If the targets pretty well held down it's going to be very hard for him to recover afterwards, especially when the 8 beams resume melting him at full power, and then the Escort smacks him around some more with DHCs. You better have an Era in your pocket because no one else is going to save that poor soul.

Also CSV is never better for spam removal than FAW is. CSV only targets a 30 degree cone at a time. While 3 targets at a time in that cone are taking more damage than something I'm making eat my CrtD or CrtH 2 Acc Disruptor beams, I'm murdering a whooole lot more targets, than you are. CSV is good for self clearing spam. It's not so much a battlefield removal tool.

Last edited by mavhax; 01-05-2013 at 05:30 PM.
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,427
# 76
01-05-2013, 05:26 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by sophlogimo View Post
So what solid boff power for beams do you have in mind?
Eh, I don't know, maybe something that gives up firing rate for increased shield pen. I think Target Subsystems would be hard to bring back because it's so easy for it to fast become powerfully annoying.

Old FAW would be nice, honestly there are enough counters to five-snoozer teams as is anyway. But what it comes down to is that I just really can't stand BO2 and running attack patterns is a bit dull.

vids and guides and stuff

[9:52] [Zone #11] Neal@trapper1532: im a omega force shadow oprative and a maoc elite camander and here i am taking water samples
Empire Veteran
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 7,176
# 77
01-05-2013, 06:00 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by mavhax View Post
I play with a stopwatch too you know.

Overall Match Time comparos have been done too.

And Fedwise, the Beam Array beats Single Barrel Cannons, Every Time.

Beams work better on fed cruisers, because their turn rate sucks. Which means it is much more difficult to maintain TOT. The Excelsior is pretty much the only one where Single Cannons become comparable in live pvp (not just duels).

Especially when you start Overcapping Weapon Power. Which due to how cannons drain weapon power, compared to beams, cannons get next to no benefit for it, while beams damage output is significantly better at over capped capacity.
actually, beams are arguably better then cannons in duels, due to superior up time with almost no maneuvering effort. ive used an unseparated falaxy R with singles to hilarious result, shimm has seen it in action and was awed by it

i could proboly post 25 screen shots of my single cannons excelsior dealing the most damage by a factor of 2 in random matches. they fire a staggering number of swings according to the log, more then the next 2 most people combined often enough. it all adds up, and theres very little on target downtime with the forward guns.

the bit about overcaping, it benefits singles and everything else just as much as beams, theres very little difference in drain from what i have seen, and rear turrets cost less energy then rear beams. put that bit about beam array and superior overcaping result out of your mind, myth busted the dps from weapons energy over about 150 is very tiny anyway.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mavhax View Post
Try singles on a non LTC tac cruiser.

It becomes a whole nother ball game then.

Or use beams on the excels for abit with something that isn't acc2 X beams have a very high innate accuracy, which ruins their output to have double acc on them compared to Cannons.

Also, when you don't run Aux to batt on everything beams suddenly become more appealing as you only have 3 tac slots to work with on an Excels.
Cannons to make them work are very boff intensive.
They are also very very zone control dependent.

You're trading away the ability to mount Extends, and RSP (while keeping ETPS3, and an EPTS1 and a Plas3) on your Excels in order to double your tac skills.

And you're wondering why suddenly your single cannon excelsior is keeping up? You're creating the perfect storm for cannon setups there.

I built my Excels with the idea it will have to do team support. As such it only has room for 3 tac slots. Aux to batt can't fit on it, because I would then have to make some pretty serious cuts in my durability, in order to be able to assist team mates regularly.

That's where beam boats excel. Is their ability to do damage while being great support monsters.

DHCs are skill hogs. You end up with a very selfish and fragile ship in the long run to mount them on a cruiser.

In your case you ate 2 LT eng skills, and all your tac slots.
I ate....... my tac slots. For TT, BO2, BO3, or TT, APD1, BO3, TT1, FAW2 FAW3 I can throw down significant burst when necessary with that setup. Or I can maintain decent pressure while overcapped (I run at like 155 weapon power on my excels), or clear spam.

Also CSV is never better for spam removal than FAW is. CSV only targets a 30 degree cone at a time. While 3 targets at a time in that cone are taking more damage than something I'm making eat my CrtD or CrtH 2 Acc Disruptor beams, I'm murdering a whooole lot more targets, than you are. CSV is good for self clearing spam. It's not so much a battlefield removal tool.
perfect storm build? or course i am! its called min maxing! oh, it just works because your minmixing, i lol'ed! its actually worked better for quite a bit longer then the AtB 'golden age',. a long time ago i used CRF1 and 2, 2 EPtW and 2 EPtS, and had 3 more eng powers left over. even then cannons beat beams by quite a bit, and this was also when DEM didn't work wile cannons skills were on at all! CSV has 45 degree cone, and hits 3 random targets in that cone every pulse. there are a lot of pulses, more then 1 a second, it works great.

am i going to suggest a heal boat use singles? no, kinda pointless. those take concentration away from throwing heals, you have to concentrate on your positioning more. plus your not going to be a damage dealer, so you might as well be a garbage man. if you try to build a tac and suport boat at the same time, your gonna have a only partially effective at everything ship. AtB swings for the fences on offense, thats why i use it. at the very least i have global RSP uptime, and global use of HE and TSS, at diminished capacity when an aux battery isn't used. it can be selfish, but that just means you have to use your firepower to greater effect to pull your weight.


just for a change of pace, and to be more useful in support, ive been thinking about building the excelsior with 2 cannon recharge doffs, 2 damage control doffs and a TT recharge doff so i can have high aux, and 2 of my stations back. for a more balanced build it would be better, but the AtB build is all about getting 100% of the damage potential out of the thing. it cant be beat for raw damage, and is still plenty hearty. its a fair trade. in eating up those stations for AtB, remember that i basically double every one of my other stations, who has more eaten up now? not to mention AtB overcapes my weapons energy, and nearly caps shield and engine energy.


DHCs on klink boats only run into problems if you don't try to control movement. your ability to tank, hold and strike is devastating when done right. AtB on these guys doubles their threat factor, you get a cannon skill at global, and you get to keep 2 (4) ltc eng stations, and 1 (2) commander stations for eng.
gateway links-->Norvo Tigan, Telis Latto Ruwon, Sochie Heim, Solana Soleus
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 127
# 78
01-05-2013, 06:11 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by dontdrunkimshoot View Post
actually, beams are arguably better then cannons in duels, due to superior up time with almost no maneuvering effort. ive used an unseparated falaxy R with singles to hilarious result, shimm has seen it in action and was awed by it

i could proboly post 25 screen shots of my single cannons excelsior dealing the most damage by a factor of 2 in random matches. they fire a staggering number of swings according to the log, more then the next 2 most people combined often enough. it all adds up, and theres very little on target downtime with the forward guns.

the bit about overcaping, it benefits singles and everything else just as much as beams, theres very little difference in drain from what i have seen, and rear turrets cost less energy then rear beams. put that bit about beam array and superior overcaping result out of your mind, myth busted the dps from weapons energy over about 150 is very tiny anyway.



perfect storm build? or course i am! its called min maxing! oh, it just works because your minmixing, i lol'ed! its actually worked better for quite a bit longer then the AtB 'golden age',. a long time ago i used CRF1 and 2, 2 EPtW and 2 EPtS, and had 3 more eng powers left over. even then cannons beat beams by quite a bit, and this was also when DEM didn't work wile cannons skills were on at all! CSV has 45 degree cone, and hits 3 random targets in that cone every pulse. there are a lot of pulses, more then 1 a second, it works great.

am i going to suggest a heal boat use singles? no, kinda pointless. those take concentration away from throwing heals, you have to concentrate on your positioning more. plus your not going to be a damage dealer, so you might as well be a garbage man. if you try to build a tac and suport boat at the same time, your gonna have a only partially effective at everything ship. AtB swings for the fences on offense, thats why i use it. at the very least i have global RSP uptime, and global use of HE and TSS, at diminished capacity when an aux battery isn't used. it can be selfish, but that just means you have to use your firepower to greater effect to pull your weight.


just for a change of pace, and to be more useful in support, ive been thinking about building the excelsior with 2 cannon recharge doffs, 2 damage control doffs and a TT recharge doff so i can have high aux, and 2 of my stations back. for a more balanced build it would be better, but the AtB build is all about getting 100% of the damage potential out of the thing. it cant be beat for raw damage, and is still plenty hearty. its a fair trade. in eating up those stations for AtB, remember that i basically double every one of my other stations, who has more eaten up now? not to mention AtB overcapes my weapons energy, and nearly caps shield and engine energy.


DHCs on klink boats only run into problems if you don't try to control movement. your ability to tank, hold and strike is devastating when done right. AtB on these guys doubles their threat factor, you get a cannon skill at global, and you get to keep 2 (4) ltc eng stations, and 1 (2) commander stations for eng.
Yes... since dealing top score in pugs means sooo much.

Actually it's not a perfect storm. It's not even close to min maxing. Not if you are fighting anyone better than some scrub pugs anyway. You're eating all of those eng slots (2 of the more important ones especially on a ship without LTC eng), and eating a large portion of your ability to support your allies. Cannons eat boff skills and or doffs like Pez Candy.

Now -I- am loling. You are lacking one of the best heal skills in the game if not the best assuming you're going for the total swing for the fences and having Plas3 or DEM3 in the Cmdr. (and you probably have EPTS3 in the spot below it) Or, are you going to use the Pathetic version of EPTS, EPTS1 which doesn't even come close to measuring up?

But hey if you wanna confuse being a Pugstar for actually bein usable. Be my guest.
You -still- aren't going to match the burst potential of an Escort, and your spam clearing capability just went into the toilet for going Fed Cannons. Oh and your burst damage? Welcome to The Suck Levels. I hope you enjoy your stay there. The only cannons the Excels can run are Singles, which are far far from being hot shots.

If your enemys are capable of moving around alot, teleporting or using the Z axis you're screwed. My ship on the other hand will just keep chugging along.

You've built a ''great'' (for a cruiser lol) offense platform And ate everything else in the process.
KDF side, the build works better because you have access to 2 tac stations. Lt Cmdr. You don't even need aux to batt to be a real crank monster on the FV. It still eating a healthy portion of it's capabity though as a cruiser if you aren't just rolling your face on the board like an idiot and hoping space bar and DHCs will be enough.

Beams are Low Opportunity Cost Weapons. They also have access to the second best spike damage skill in the game, in Beam Overload. It takes little if not 0 effort to run a hot loaded beam boat.

The OP of this thread thinks that Beams Suck. Because he's just running Aux 2 batt builds. Which tremendously diminish durability.

Let's recap what your boffs look like either
A
EPTS1, A2Batt, (if you're not going Total selfish) ES2, DEM3
EPTS1, A2Batt
Eng Team1
And have total Crap for SDR in the process.

or
EPTS1, Aux 2 batt, EPTS3, DEM3
EPTA1, Aux2 batt
ET

Now let's look at mine shall we?
EPTS1, Extend1, EPTS3, Plas3
EPTW1, either ET2, or RSP1
EPTW1

Or Alt load.
EPTA1, EPTS2, Extend 2, DEM3
EPTS1, RSP
EPTA1

Your Tac slots.
TT, APD1 (since everything SHOULD be in global) CRF2

Mine
TT, APD1, Bo3
ALT. TT, BO2, BO3
Alt, TT, FAW2 FAW3

SCI: Yours
HE, TSS... with crap aux most of the time

Mine
PH, TSS good aux capability.
Or
Tractor, TSS
or, HE1, FPB1

Now in an honest Premade Fight, which one is going to help their team more? Something that's a second rate DPS dealer. Or a second rate DPS dealer, that also has secondary healing capability?
I know which my money is on.

Last edited by mavhax; 01-05-2013 at 06:19 PM.
Captain
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 2,283
# 79
01-05-2013, 06:19 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by mavhax View Post
Yes... since dealing top score in pugs means sooo much.

Actually it's not a perfect storm. It's not even close to min maxing. Not if you are fighting anyone better than some scrub pugs anyway. You're eating all of those eng slots (2 of the more important ones especially on a ship without LTC eng), and eating a large portion of your ability to support your allies. Cannons eat boff skills and or doffs like Pez Candy.

Now -I- am loling. You are lacking one of the best heal skills in the game if not the best assuming you're going for the total swing for the fences and having Plas3 or DEM3 in the Cmdr. (and you probably have EPTS3 in the spot below it) Or, are you going to use the Pathetic version of EPTS, EPTS1 which doesn't even come close to measuring up?

But hey if you wanna confuse being a Pugstar for actually bein usable. Be my guest.
You -still- aren't going to match the burst potential of an Escort, and your spam clearing capability just went into the toilet for going Fed Cannons. Oh and your burst damage? Welcome to The Suck Levels. I hope you enjoy your stay there. The only cannons the Excels can run are Singles, which are far far from being hot shots.

If your enemys are capable of moving around alot, teleporting or using the Z axis you're screwed. My ship on the other hand will just keep chugging along.

You've built a ''great'' (for a cruiser lol) offense platform And ate everything else in the process.
KDF side, the build works better because you have access to 2 tac stations. Lt Cmdr. You don't even need aux to batt to be a real crank monster on the FV. It still eating a healthy portion of it's capabity though as a cruiser if you aren't just rolling your face on the board like an idiot and hoping space bar and DHCs will be enough.

Beams are Low Opportunity Cost Weapons. They also have access to the second best spike damage skill in the game, in Beam Overload. It takes little if not 0 effort to run a hot loaded beam boat.

Let me see if I can summarize your disagreement here.

Beams = Good if using few (or no) abilities to enhance them
Cannons = Good if using several abilities to enhance them

To which I must ask the following question. Why are you not just using turrets? Aside from spam cleaning that is.
- No need to overcap
- Better Glider effect
- Better DEM effect
- Better firing arc
- Same raw damage
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 127
# 80
01-05-2013, 06:20 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by bareel View Post
Let me see if I can summarize your disagreement here.

Beams = Good if using few (or no) abilities to enhance them
Cannons = Good if using several abilities to enhance them

To which I must ask the following question. Why are you not just using turrets? Aside from spam cleaning that is.
- No need to overcap
- Better Glider effect
- Better DEM effect
- Better firing arc
- Same raw damage
Turrets are Cannons, and suffer the same range penalties. That Beams do not have nearly as much issues with. They also don't have access to BO. And you already mentioned spam cleanse.
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