It would seem like the solution would be to make the cap apply to the bonuses as well then.

I'm of kind of mixed feelings on the defense issue. I've been playing a pretty vanilla Patrol Escort lately, without access to most of the better gear yet. I'm playing a human captain without the specialized space traits either.

I can tell you that the basic escort, not min-maxed gets hit plenty. Speed helps, but I do take hits in that.

On the other hand, I see a lot of other escorts that just don't get hit, even when I'm matching their speed at half-throttle.

I'd think the best way to fix it would be to just make it so the cap effects the bonuses too. They'd still be an advantage, because they'd let you coast at minimum speed and still get significant defense, but it would end the silliness where you stream CRF into a target for 10 seconds and every single shot misses.

Basically the main thing that's keeping escort defense levels unnaturally high is AP DOffs. Getting AP:O down to its shared CD is extremely powerful.

When you're looking for something broken with the game, DOffs are usually a great place to start. It's really obvious at this point that they go through zero playtesting before being sent to live.

I like the sound of this idea^.

Though I get hit plenty for a unPvP-traited toon in my PegHu using the "tricks of the trade" to get a good defense under minmaxing.

What I'm getting from this, and correct me if I'm wrong, is that you want to change defense so it is not tied entirely to movement. You said your vid is full of things that likely shouldn't happen, and over and over it shows targets who have their movement halted getting alpha'd.

I'm not hearing you complain that you are missing, I'm hearing you complain that the mechanic is allowing attacks to be too effective because it allows you to completely remove defense with a tractor beam (contributing to Acc overflow I would assume).

So two changes could happen:

1. Speed becomes a component of a defense score, which also gets contributions from things like ECMs or a precog at the conn.

So escorts could have a larger percentage of their defense score come from movement, with sci and cruisers picking it up from other areas. This means the smaller zippy stuff would be hurt more by being stuck in the mud.

2. Defense becomes a chance X% to reduce damage by Y% rather than total avoidance.

So escorts would have a high X but a low Y, because they're always zipping around so darn fast that even your android boff can't keep up, so they shave 20% off of attacks pretty frequently because so many of the hits they take are glancing.

Cruisers have a low X but a high Y because they don't dodge very often but sometimes an empty cargo bay eats most of a BO and it doesn't take as much out of the actual structural integrity.

You could also potentially tie either X or Y to "crit resistance" if there is such a thing. I don't know enough about how the rolls work. We know we've got Acc overflow, how about defense overflow? If you hit the ceiling for X or Y you could get overflow into crit resistance? IDK. Just spitballing.

i meant defensive bo skills like jam scrambles viral stuff like that was in a hurry and failed to put that in. also if you get rid of defensive bonus you will run into the old faw cruiser tsi style fights again when faw was broken and ignored the defense bonus!

If you want to hit someone hard in a escort slow em up use crio torps and well times tractor beams viral gravwell target engines ect if you see someone buffing up and dont want to get owned jam evasive omega scramble warp plasma ect iv never found this to be a bother yea it sucks missing a bol3 i do it a lot but i also land a lot because i shut them down. there are so many ways to make this number go to 0

I would like to point to exibit a https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QwDiRf1rqNY how about you count the misses! Also watch the shows how often does the cpt say evasive maneuvers yea think he would say that if they got hit all the time while doing it...

This game is based off those shows its called star trek

Don't you dare nerf defense! My subspace field modulator will cry!

If not for ridiculous yoyo healing, I'd like to have seen what could happen if Cruisers truly had massive hulls compared to other ships (150-200k). Then they might be slower but they, by virtue of being larger, would better absorb the massive damage that faster ships with lower hulls more easily avoid. But then the focus would have to be adjusted from healing to mitigation (yoyo healing is evil right now).

Inertia is somehow related to mass, what if high inertia meant larger ships with stronger hull and an innate resistance to energy weapon critical severity. Faster ships would be more prone to severity if hit but would still have an easier time dodging.

I die plenty but I'd be interested in testing a slight reduction in the defense cap for escorts, as Bobtheyak suggested.

While I'd love to fly my super sexy Galaxy-R more regularly, I above all else would like to avoid a return to Cruisers on line where escorts are more of a liability than a help and nothing else died.

Everything must die!

Okay listen. You NEED to read what I posted before you comment. You NEED to take your time when you respond. I already MENTIONED evasive in the OP. Yes I've heard of star trek. I think we all have. Just take a minute or two is all I'm asking.

I have NO idea where this "someones missing BO3 stuff" started, but go figure.
The game in its current state HUGELY favors my style of play. It just does.

As you were so kind as to leave a helpful video I thought I would do the same. This should reflect my inner feelings when I read your posts.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dcELyKkOAak

Sure there's PLENTY of ways to reduce defense to ZERO. And TACTICAL ONLY has the single BEST way out of that. As you have mentioned. Omega.

If anyone thought, or still thinks, I was actually serious about removing defense I'm sorry.

I thought you all would see right through that.

Avoidance stats are notoriously hard to balance in games. This is because it allows you to potentially avoid anything that comes at you. When the highest defense class in the game also has the highest defense buff/cleanse in the game I hope you can see the gap this opens up.

Yes, ships can lose defense very easily, Escorts easily get it back, and at the same time have access to only marginally weaker hull resists. Any ship can cap shield resists.

Better shields mods and higher resistance hulls and health points on scis and engis doesn't compensate well for the sad relationship that defense and crits seem to have. They will be hit and they will be hit hard.

I'm not saying that counters etc aren't out there. But please keep in mind the dual nature of most Boff abilities in this game. Remember I mentioned that? I hope I did. When a cruiser uses PH to escape a Tractor they'll gain a boost to resistance. Something that we all should know by now doesn't stack to well on a cruiser at this point. Okay maybe if they aren't running any armor they will show a nice gain. Or TSS on a Sci. Woo hoo I got my heal and now my shields are.....Just like before! Woot! Cause you KNOW its likely your shield res is already capped.

Okay this bit previously. We know how resistances diminish, and reach a cap. An escort will get a far better outcome from using those abilites as they likely started lower to begin with. So for being weaker in that stat, they end up with a greater boost, and end up almost at parity with the other ships. Oh really? Yes really.

What does an escort get. They get omega. Defense boost beyond what any acc in the game can overcome, and a boost to speed, manuevers, and damage. Hey not bad I'll take that. Lets look at delta, the weaker cousin. Still enough to boost resistance in a manner that other ships likely wont carry (they could, but they have tough choices with TT) plus it will lower the attackers resistance unless they use TT. And hey, I'd much rather an opponent waste his TT on the offense, then I know when it's time to alpha. And Omega.

Speed based defense is favorable only to escorts. It's a very passive free stat for escorts. Tying defense to crits is grievous to the game in general. And it negates the shield mods, hull boosts, and hull resistances that other classes of ships were given to offset the defense deficit.

There needs to be other ways in the game to manage the defense stat outside of speed. There could be a minimum defense that lack of speed could never reduce you past. There could be another stat based on "some stuff we will make up" like an abstraction of hull strength and bracing and or electronic countermeasures as passives. This stat would boost defense and lower your chance to be crit.

Cause crit NEEDS another dance partner.

Then maybe, with 3 tools spread equally amongst the classes, incoming damage can be managed to the point where resistances can be relaxed, spike damage can be mitigated, heals can be reduced, and stuff will still die.

And wouldn't that be a tad bit better than "Poof my 60k cruiser just exploded." Honestly wouldn't it?

Cheers happy flying!

[quote]With all the whine posts about "My Engineer can't wade into space combat like Geordi did in the series, flinging damage like its pez..." , "Cruisers can't dish out damage like my Escort does, size should mean more firepower....", " Sophilogimo's continuos "bad ideas" and all the other flotsam and jetsam of crying we see in the forums on how things are - It gets hard to see who is joking and who is seriuos.

If the Defense issue for escorts (that whole extra 10%) is truelly an issue and ApO ( which can be used on several (5) fed Non-tactical ships as well) gives too much extra defense on top of a Hold-breaker buff then possibly the hold-breaker needs to be removed so those whom lament the speed tanking of a Escort can use TB and other holds to stop them and kill them.

Of course if they remove the Hold-breaker from ApO then they need to put something in its place to compensate, imo.

Personally though I fail to understand how experienced Cruisers or Science Vessels with access to;

EPTS3 with its 30 second long 30% resist to shields
A2sif with its +19 to +37 ALL damage resistance for 10 seconds that can be adjusted by Aux.
TSS with its +7% to 15% damage reduction to shields for 15 seconds that can be adjusted by Aux.
PH with is +37 and up ALL damage resistance for 15 seconds that can be adjusted by Aux.
HE with its +20 ALL damage resistance for 15 seconds that can be adjusted by Aux.

are not bouncing more Alpha strikes and surviving them if only wounded?