Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,292
# 71
01-10-2013, 10:20 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by dontdrunkimshoot View Post
i could go for all that. but currently, of all the defensive options, defense is the easiest and most reliable to turn off completely. even when the ships with the most defense have a 90% immunity to defense neutralization. shields, if theres a lot of phasers around, can be turned off nearly as hard, but only at random.


Well DDIS, that's exactly what I've been saying. The ships with the MOST defense have a 90% immunity to having it neutralized. And tactical ships have ways of gaining PARITY in resistance based mitigation and Cruisers and Scis cannot match them on defense.


And tacticals have three solid tools to reduce the resistances of the other classes. PLUS they have all of the non class abilites outside of sensor scan. Thats the purview of sci cappies only.

Where's the synergy? Where's the balance when ONE class has all the abilites PLUS extra? How's that work? The answer is not very well.

And again this isn't specifically aimed at you or anyone. I'm not sure if you've noticed, but most of our 'disagreements' are purely syntax. Further discussion has really just been for the clarity of those not quite as familar with the entire..."oooooh i know what u mean even if u said it differently" thing.

being in the same time zone, you would think we would see each other more often
Yah I dunno man we're both in QA. Keg let me sneak in. Send a friend invite so u can stalk me.
If I don't respond to posts on this forum don't be offended. I don't sub or follow any of them.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 127
# 72
01-10-2013, 10:28 AM
Um the Scort doesn't have all the abilities plus extra.

If you played Premade v Premade more you'd see that '

Also Scorts have only really access to 2 or 3 abilities to lower resistance...

TBR, Plas (on the Akira), VM and tractor beam.
To effective use 3 of the above requires you to take something that's not a Bugship too. Which most people don't wanna do.


FOMM? Joke
APD Debuff? Joke
APB Debuff? Joke

Tactical debuffs are Terribad.
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,292
# 73
01-10-2013, 10:36 AM
[quote=bitemepwe;7423581]
Quote:

just as long as you know my posts are not personal attacks.

But I still must ask... Outside of Attack Pattern Alpha*, what Escort benefits can only be used by Escorts?

* keep in mind several non-escort ships have a LTC Tac BOff slot and can use ApO1, so its not a completely Escort related benefit and ApO's defense bonus lasts 5 seconds so is very situational and requires timing. Just spamming ApO constantly doesn't help your defense constantly.

IE: Fleet SV-r, AHC-r, FL AHC-r, AC-r, Fl AC, and those are just the fed non-escorts vessels that can use ApO.

I understand I harp on this point alot, but I'm just not buying that ApO's brief defense buff is the easy defense that many claim it to be for escorts and that such is why the are percieved as defensively OP.
I truelly believe those Escorts that defend themselves so effortlessly is becuase of good timing on ability use and experience of the player in question. I've seen too many Escorts pop in Ker'rat to believe otherwise.
First, I reduced the argument to it's basic state. And that would be the one where very few ships outside of escorts HAD a Ltcmdr tac slot. The reason I did that is because that was the point that design and balance decisions were made that still affect us today.

So it may seem like I'm disregarding your point for no reason I'm really not. I'm disregarding it because the design flaws came in BEFORE your point. So even though having access to a single Ltcmdr ability lessens the blow to those cruisers and scis that can have it, it doesn't address the root issue.

Secondly, wouldn't you rather feel you could use that for some 'fun' ability rather than facing that fact that Omega is the best all around button you could put there? I'd rather have a cool weapon ability.

I pop escorts all day. And cruisers. It is much easier to do the cruisers. Okay. It would take a LOONG time to post why. You sort of say why. Good timing and use of abilities by the player, but don't you think that having those abilities to use in the first place sort of um...contribute? They already have actual speed and manuevering in game. Bammo. Done. We posted on this. Omega gives more and more of it. Plus defense. Just because some players don't make use of it doesn't mean it isn't there.

And it isn't just Omega (ps, i know u didn't mean alpha) It is the way the defense interacts with resistances to hugely magnify escorts survivability. And the way removing defense is catastrophic to any ship that cant instantly gain it back.

And I keep looking in game roach, but I show the defense bonus UP on my ship for the full duration. As soon as the buff icon drops my character status updates, not before. So 15 seconds. I think it is a tooltip error.

Whenever you can get it, defense is TOO GOOD to pass up. It trumps all the other stats because......

If it don't hit you, it don't hurt to much.
If I don't respond to posts on this forum don't be offended. I don't sub or follow any of them.
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,292
# 74
01-10-2013, 10:43 AM
[quote=mavhax;7424201]Um the Scort doesn't have all the abilities plus extra.

If you played Premade v Premade more you'd see that '

Also Scorts have only really access to 2 or 3 abilities to lower resistance...

TBR, Plas (on the Akira), VM and tractor beam.
To effective use 3 of the above requires you to take something that's not a Bugship too. Which most people don't wanna do.


FOMM? Joke
APD Debuff? Joke
APB Debuff? Joke

Tactical debuffs are Terribad.[/QU


You're looking at an extremely narrow segment of the game and saying....

'well its ok because'

that isn't how it works, and it doens't change the facts. If you can't accept that premades don't test for everything well that's ok and thats a limit you have. I'm sorry.

The scort does have all of the resistance abilites, plus it has extra defense abilities. You need to read more carefully. Honestly your just not making any sense and your weakly hashing over things I've clearly posted on.

Dont just pop in at this point in the thread with "Joke. Joke. Joke."

That isn't contributing.
If I don't respond to posts on this forum don't be offended. I don't sub or follow any of them.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 127
# 75
01-10-2013, 10:57 AM
Does it have the ability to Extend Shields without compromising hit's shield tanking power? Which actually you know. Does matter when you aren't fighting Chumps. (Ie not your typical can and hold victims

Does it have the ability to use high level heals, such as ET3, ASIF3?

Other than the stupid Azn Grind which pretty much ruins everyone's durability (thanks T4 bleed through and +3 crit chance ).

Does it have the ability to -frequently- use high aux settings Hazard and TSS? No and no. Not without compromising it's Damage capability.

If Defense, and Scorts were all that and a bag if chips do you really think the premade teams would stick to only fielding 2 at max on a given serious team?

I know you like to think you know better than most, and for a pug you do Thiss. But you have purposefully and willfully ignored Premade play in STO. You've also steered clear of it, and that's fine and good. But it really cuts you out from seeing the larger scale of the gameplay.

Once Externals are being thrown around, the Escort's ability to defend itself against competent opponents greatly diminishes.

Sure in a pug environment the Scort enjoys many many advantages. Because pugs are too stupid to heal, or cooridinate their efforts. Escorts follow a linear curve in effectiveness.

While sci garbage, and heals follow an exponential curve by comparison. The scorts power starts out higher and in the end is completely and utterly trumped by heals and CC. (what limited CC there is left in STO anyway)

We premade guys DO test alot. Infact I'm willing to bet we test for far more variables than you do

Defense isn't what ruined pvp. Azn Trash, Set Items, and MK XI+ did.

Defense is the lynch pin stat for escorts and pug pvp. Which is what makes warp plasma and tractor beam so utterly devastating in pug play. In Premade play however, it's all you can do to over come SDR, HDR and Heals with as much CC, damage and timing sub nuke debuff strikes as possible on each ship. And even then the margin of a kill vs life, is razor thin, because of how ludicrous SDR, HDR and Heals are even when a target is at Negative Defense numbers. That being said using Pug Pvp as your Baseline is like using the Special Olympics to dictate the norm for athletic ability. Pugs are on a typical day, only marginally harder to take out or survive through as an NPC.

Last edited by mavhax; 01-10-2013 at 11:01 AM.
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,395
# 76
01-10-2013, 11:21 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by thissler View Post
And shimmerless, only horizon has a closer place in my heart than you! Do you ever even watch those vids? And are you an artist, i need one. send me a message.

My style of play is to watch buffs and then pounce at the moment I know that I can tractor someone into critical hit heaven and then vaporize them. It's sooper effective and it likely shouldn't be.
Oh I do watch them, don't worry, it's just a bit tough trying to juggle everything in my head at times. You also have a very... frenetic writing style, and I'm just a slow-minded kid so I sometimes have to double- or triple-check what's been said.

I think mavhax has said it much better than I ever could have myself... fundamentally there isn't anything wrong with your style of play, which is why I asked. If buff-reading and stacking didn't net kills no one would ever die in this damn game.

The difference is that an escort's perceived strength melts away in a team game where both sides are competent. You have a narrow, exploitable arc and a very predictable buff cycle (in Turks we don't just track TT, Omega is a big one to force a burn on as well).

And while Defense scales well, the hard fact is that it's a very poor stat to rely on other than as a supplement to your shield resistance (or hull resist too in the case of the bug) because there are a million and one ways to counter Defense while there are only exotic outliers like phaser procs for countering shields. Your healers can keep your shields solid but they can't do much to save you from holds and disables, that's more or less your purview.

I don't wanna get too deep into a discussion on the strength of the ship classes because honestly I think there's too much misinfo and chaff and anecdotal evidence to get anything close to a good picture. I will say that in team STO play, escorts tend to be more of a liability than an asset and really have to justify themselves by what they bring to the table, much more so than an Engiecluse or what have you. It reminds me of League all over again, sure there are pugging heroes who do well for rolling solo queue but they fast become a joke in tourney play.

BTW, you can mail me in-game @shimmerless any time Thiss. I'll be happy to paint you a pretty picture or whatevs.

vids and guides and stuff

[9:52] [Zone #11] Neal@trapper1532: im a omega force shadow oprative and a maoc elite camander and here i am taking water samples

Last edited by shimmerless; 01-10-2013 at 11:23 AM.
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,292
# 77
01-10-2013, 11:53 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by shimmerless View Post
Oh I do watch them, don't worry, it's just a bit tough trying to juggle everything in my head at times. You also have a very... frenetic writing style, and I'm just a slow-minded kid so I sometimes have to double- or triple-check what's been said.

I think mavhax has said it much better than I ever could have myself... fundamentally there isn't anything wrong with your style of play, which is why I asked. If buff-reading and stacking didn't net kills no one would ever die in this damn game.

The difference is that an escort's perceived strength melts away in a team game where both sides are competent. You have a narrow, exploitable arc and a very predictable buff cycle (in Turks we don't just track TT, Omega is a big one to force a burn on as well).

And while Defense scales well, the hard fact is that it's a very poor stat to rely on other than as a supplement to your shield resistance (or hull resist too in the case of the bug) because there are a million and one ways to counter Defense while there are only exotic outliers like phaser procs for countering shields. Your healers can keep your shields solid but they can't do much to save you from holds and disables, that's more or less your purview.
I don't wanna get too deep into a discussion on the strength of the ship classes because honestly I think there's too much misinfo and chaff and anecdotal evidence to get anything close to a good picture. I will say that in team STO play, escorts tend to be more of a liability than an asset and really have to justify themselves by what they bring to the table, much more so than an Engiecluse or what have you. It reminds me of League all over again, sure there are pugging heroes who do well for rolling solo queue but they fast become a joke in tourney play.

BTW, you can mail me in-game @shimmerless any time Thiss. I'll be happy to paint you a pretty picture or whatevs.
Okay. What you just posted is what I've been saying. So where do we disagree?

Escorts have fine abilities to buff thier own shields, hulls, etc etc etc. Just like the other ships do.

They also start with better def and have the best ways to escape the effect of holds and disables.

That isn't a perception. It really is there. Just because say....oh...a sci could subnuc off that omega once in a while or.....any of a million OTHER team play configs that really don't matter.....doens't make it solid game design.

And it really doens't matter for a few reasons. "High level" league play isn't how the game is experienced by the majority of players. Nor is it ever intended to be.

"High Level" team play isn't where this design imbalance was implemented. It's a root cause that is shaping your "High Level" team play, not the other way around.

Stop thinking that what ten people do in the game automatically has relevance over thousands of iterations of gameplay just because....? Because why?

So I've already said the resistance knob is cranked to the highest. We KNOW this. Everyone says it is, no one says it isn't. Now I'm telling you WHY it was made that way. Because of the mishandling of defense and attempts to balance against it. And it STILL isn't enough. You can NEVER get it high enough withought passing through 100%.

here.

"(in Turks we don't just track TT, Omega is a big one to force a burn on as well)."

Why put that in there? I mean TT is one to watch for sure. I've done LOTS of bits on TT. If TT is present on a ship, its a no fire. Without it all those purty shield buffs are pretty much garbage in the face of crit damage, but why put that there? Isn't THAT what I've been saying all along? Did I bring this up?

And then your put it in and say...."Oh hey may want to keep an eye on Omega!"

And I'm like.....yah. Hmm. Maybe I should make a thread on that.

And maybe I am frenetic. But I'm a well thought out frenetic.

And Mav, you could be and all day long you'd still be wrong.

Just stop it dude. You can't have it all ways. You can't seriously sit there and say "At times I run a shield bias and wait it out, then I shift to a weapons bias and pew pew" and then say

"Does it have the ability to -frequently- use high aux settings Hazard and TSS? No and no. Not without compromising it's Damage capability. "

Really? Thats your argument? Please stop.

"While sci garbage, and heals follow an exponential curve by comparison"

You know that isn't true right? You MUST know it isn't. With all the testing you do and all.

Premades aren't the wide range of gameplay experience that you say it is. Its a very narrow range. And it isn't where design decisions are made, it is where design flaws are exposed and exploited.


Really mav, what page is this and you're one of the last to begin to come around to the OP. You're not even ADRESSING MY POINTS.

Oh thiss, you roll people in cap and holds. Real smooth bud. Classy.
If I don't respond to posts on this forum don't be offended. I don't sub or follow any of them.
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 3,390
# 78
01-10-2013, 12:16 PM
Quote:
The ships with the MOST defense have a 90% immunity to having it neutralized.
For someone who isn't an expert, outside of 3x VR AP DOFFs for APO at GCD with 50% up-time - what remains, to escorts as a ship class only, to account for 90% immunity to defense neutralization?
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,392
# 79
01-10-2013, 12:26 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ussultimatum View Post
For someone who isn't an expert, outside of 3x VR AP DOFFs for APO at GCD with 50% up-time - what remains, to escorts as a ship class only, to account for 90% immunity to defense neutralization?
I think they've broadened the Escort definition to include the Destoyers/Hybrids Cryptic has introduced this last year or so.

W/that pool Aux2batt opens things up. Also, not counting doffs the more flexible boff layouts allow for PH/TBR to be included if needed.

Lastly, Eng batt and Evasives and hyper-engines will break most holds. In this case a well timed interrupt (PSW/Trics/PSW Torps) is needed to strip the evasives. Though aux2damp counters stuns. At that point it's rock paper scissors of who brings what and uses what when.
Captain
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 1,812
# 80
01-10-2013, 12:29 PM
Base HP * Mitigation Mod * Avoidance Mod = EHP

IF EHP > Damage then you live

And when you start multiplying stuff that APO defense buff sure is good. It is why I even say escorts make better PvE tanks with a dedicated healer and yet none believe me. Because when you start dealing with multipliers raising the lowest one has a huge effect.

On the premade issue, have any good teams tried fielding 5x DHC monsters just to see if anything can survive the onslaught? I highly doubt it has recently been attempted nor that it would fail as badly as many seem to think.
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