Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,394
# 21
01-16-2013, 07:42 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by shimmerless View Post
I would also like to strongly second one of Hank's statements. In recent times it's fast become my belief that the fleet has suffered in part because we strive hard to play clean games, to encourage others to do likewise and because we refuse to abuse the game any more than it's already been abused.

While we've on occasion been a little zealous in converting the playerbase to the clean and plain side of life, we've also long had the support of many in the community for our policies and the way we play the game. There are quarters who'd like to drag everyone down to the same level, and the mere existence of the fleet infuriates them. It's my belief that this is the reasoning that led to the original intense scrutiny, and in reaching out with a fig leaf to all PvP players I'm by no means excusing said behavior.
Respect did start forming for that desire to play clean as you say. However the human downside is that 99% of the good deeds can easily be wiped out by that 1% bad which seems to be the case.

I am not going to ask on behalf of the community but on a personal level, to avoid these situations escalating like it did in such a rapid manner, how can we bring any issues up regarding your fleet? And more importantly, how would we be informed how that issue has been dealt with to give me the confidence that you as a fleet are being proactive about dealing with the bad minority? If this helps other get the confidence, its a bonus.

Before the same question is asked of the pandas, I'll answer by saying any wrong doings by the pandas can be forwarded to Bieber or Herb who are our current fleet reps. There are no leaders in Pandas, just nominated reps.

@naz1911

PvP for old and new.
aka NazHuggyBear2

"No, there is no real problem with P2W in STO. Obviously, if you fight against someone with an equal level of skill in the game, better equipment will give you an edge. But usually, it is the skill level that determines the outcome, not the P2W." - Sprinkles
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 883
# 22
01-16-2013, 07:46 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by shimmerless View Post
The original bar list on the International PvP TS was very small, and represented a lone exception to the general rule. The problem was that a few of our members were deeply upset -- long prior to all of this -- with some of the players in question using our "open Teamspeak" policy. We couldn't ignore the feelings of some of our fleetmates and so the issue was put to a vote.
I appreciate the honesty, but I think what you've laid out has some very negative repercussions.

You guys want to strengthen the PvP community, and so do we, and we should be working together on that. Instead of building a single unified community though, we have two loose groups forming that are becoming more partisan as time goes on. You've got the Panda/Critz/TSI sphere on the one hand, and the TRH/Inner Circle and friends sphere on the other. If we aren't careful this could get as bad as Republicans vs. Democrats.

How you run your TS is your business, but if you care about strengthening PvP you should either have it be open with fair rules, or abandon the pretense altogether and revert to a closed or semi-closed fleet TS. What we have right now is only helping to divide the community.

Keep in mind that the will of the majority is a fickle creature -- it is prone to mob mentality and group think. You need a balance between the individual and the whole. Pandas gravitates more towards the individual, and from what I've heard TRH gravitates almost completely towards the whole. We can debate the philosophy behind all of this, but I believe a lopsided system to be a structural weakness.

For example, I've been told that the recent release of private conversations was decided democratically, despite the fact that one individual decided to secretly record and suggest releasing them. Now that individual is hiding behind the guilt of the collective and refuses to take any sort of personal responsibility. The most likely truth is that the group only voted for what that individual had in his heart to do already, and aside from that individual no one who voted with him would be brazen enough go through with the act on their own. Some fault lies with the group, definitely, but the majority lies with the individual. If your fleet had a stronger balance between individual and collective rights and responsibilities this incident would probably be avoided altogether.

While it's a good step that you've said sorry in a general sense, releasing private conversations is something that needs to be specifically apologized for given the magnitude of it's consequences. Whether you decide to answer individually or as a whole, I do want a response -- Will you promise not to secretly record private conversations and release them publicly in the future? If you can't make this promise, then this thread isn't about making right, but rather about good PR for TRH. If you can make this promise, we can start making progress towards more cooperation and hopefully undo some of the segregation we've unwittingly created in the PvP community.
Captain
Join Date: Nov 2012
Posts: 1,416
# 23
01-16-2013, 07:47 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by naz4 View Post
Respect did start forming for that desire to play clean as you say. However the human downside is that 99% of the good deeds can easily be wiped out by that 1% bad which seems to be the case.

I am not going to ask on behalf of the community but on a personal level, to avoid these situations escalating like it did in such a rapid manner, how can we bring any issues up regarding your fleet? And more importantly, how would we be informed how that issue has been dealt with to give me the confidence that you as a fleet are being proactive about dealing with the bad minority? If this helps other get the confidence, its a bonus.

Before the same question is asked of the pandas, I'll answer by saying any wrong doings by the pandas can be forwarded to Bieber or Herb who are our current fleet reps. There are no leaders in Pandas, just nominated reps.

@naz1911

PvP for old and new.
As a leader of tsi... I can yeah. Reguardless of the good we've tried to do in the past everyone only remembers the bad.
Quote:
Originally Posted by mancom View Post
Frankly, I think the only sound advice that one can give new players at this time is to stay away from PVP in STO.
Science pvp at its best-http://www.youtube.com/user/matteo716
Do you even Science Bro?
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,427
# 24
01-16-2013, 08:15 AM
Hurleybird, I'm afraid I can't answer your intentionally leading questions because they're based on unwarranted assumptions about the decision-making process within TRH. I say this without any hint of malice, but given that your apparent proclivity for making claims well beyond the possible bounds of your knowledge has gotten everyone into trouble not so long ago, I think it's disappointing that you haven't seemed to learn from the experience. It feels like I'm treading the same ground where you drag the fleet through the mud for reasons that still aren't completely clear.

If you'd like to move forward, you really must control the impulse that leads down to slurs or false accusations. You have to treat others how you'd like to be treated yourself. I know that it can be difficult for some (at times myself included) but as I said before, you have to put a human face on people, realize that conspiratorial thinking is rarely an accurate picture of reality and develop the maturity to forgive others for your own sins.

vids and guides and stuff

[9:52] [Zone #11] Neal@trapper1532: im a omega force shadow oprative and a maoc elite camander and here i am taking water samples

Last edited by shimmerless; 01-16-2013 at 08:18 AM.
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,394
# 25
01-16-2013, 09:26 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by shimmerless View Post
Hurleybird, I'm afraid I can't answer your intentionally leading questions because they're based on unwarranted assumptions about the decision-making process within TRH. I say this without any hint of malice, but given that your apparent proclivity for making claims well beyond the possible bounds of your knowledge has gotten everyone into trouble not so long ago, I think it's disappointing that you haven't seemed to learn from the experience. It feels like I'm treading the same ground where you drag the fleet through the mud for reasons that still aren't completely clear.

If you'd like to move forward, you really must control the impulse that leads down to slurs or false accusations. You have to treat others how you'd like to be treated yourself. I know that it can be difficult for some (at times myself included) but as I said before, you have to put a human face on people, realize that conspiratorial thinking is rarely an accurate picture of reality and develop the maturity to forgive others for your own sins.
Agreed that there were too many assumptions made, however, to settle the debate and not prolong this thread which I assume would be in your favour as well, could you answer the basic questions posted above?

Maybe this particular post can be settled in private between you 2 to avoid the silliness that could potentially erupt??
aka NazHuggyBear2

"No, there is no real problem with P2W in STO. Obviously, if you fight against someone with an equal level of skill in the game, better equipment will give you an edge. But usually, it is the skill level that determines the outcome, not the P2W." - Sprinkles
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 883
# 26
01-16-2013, 09:36 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by shimmerless View Post
Hurleybird, I'm afraid I can't answer your intentionally leading questions
Look up "leading question" on Google. I only asked one question, and it wasn't leading.

Here's the question: Will you promise not to secretly record private conversations and release them publicly in the future?

There's exactly one way one might argue this is a leading question -- that it implies TRH released private correspondence to the public. But TRH actually did release private correspondence to the public, which is a fact no one denies. Therefore, this is not a leading question.

A satisfactory answer is required. How can we trust TRH in the future without one?

Quote:
Originally Posted by shimmerless View Post
because they're based on unwarranted assumptions about the decision-making process within TRH.
The second half of this sentence is not relevant since I did not ask a leading question, but please, and I mean this with all sincerity, if I've misunderstood the TRH process somehow feel free to correct me.

Quote:
Originally Posted by shimmerless View Post
If you'd like to move forward, you really must control the impulse that leads down to slurs or false accusations.
I'm not aware that I've done either in this thread. The later may be able to be loosely argued, but certainly I haven't slurred -- that's a false accusation on your part.

Quote:
Originally Posted by naz4 View Post
Maybe this particular post can be settled in private between you 2 to avoid the silliness that could potentially erupt??
I appreciate your desire not to offend after the recent drama Naz, but if we bury our heads in the sand and pretend these issues do not exist it's only a matter of time before things reach a boiling point again. Delaying makes the eventual fallout worse. Better that we work things out now, or at least try.

Last edited by hurleybird; 01-16-2013 at 09:47 AM.
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,730
# 27
01-16-2013, 10:01 AM
Remember, it is only private if you say it is private before hand. And even then you may be at risk.

Look it up.

That being said, and as much as it pains me, I suggest you follow the advice of naz. And that you do so with no actual expectation of privacy on your part. It is clear that you feel you won't have any and there is no reasonable way to ensure that you will have it. So I also suggest you all speak very carefully in the future with full regard that any and all conversations you have will be open to public review.

Cheers and move along. This really isn't about the rest of the world, it's a small group that needs to work things out. Go somewhere and do that.

http://legal-dictionary.thefreedicti...ion+of+privacy

In case you didn't want to look it up. Cause I'm all about helping. Really. Helper. Me.

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And...FACEBOOK MEH!

Last edited by thissler; 01-16-2013 at 10:04 AM.
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 883
# 28
01-16-2013, 10:22 AM
Absolutely irrelevant. This isn't a court of law. Nobody is looking to sue anybody. Nobody is claiming that anybody did anything criminal. This is about trust, decency, and sincerity.
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 315
# 29
01-16-2013, 10:38 AM
O but they did... psstt yo its a game get on and blow crap up!
Career Officer
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 162
# 30
01-16-2013, 10:53 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by thissler View Post
http://legal-dictionary.thefreedicti...ion+of+privacy

In case you didn't want to look it up. Cause I'm all about helping. Really. Helper. Me.
Privacy and recording are similar but not proper. It is illegal to record someone without their consent in 90% of the civilized world.
http://www.uvu.edu/wrs/trainingmaterials/recording.html
Good read, only 12 states actually allow legal authorities to record based off of one party consent.

The fact is recording someone else's vent over a video game is childish. I haven't bothered with this game for so long now because of all this childish drama and lack of anything worth it in pvp. Everyone, grow up. You're all making this community look like f'n romper room.

Kthnxbye.
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