Captain
Join Date: Nov 2012
Posts: 3,477
# 621
01-17-2013, 08:15 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by bareel View Post
If fans can accept the idea of slaughtering hordes of enemy ships while flying the UFP flag so to speak I don't see it being an issue.

All kidding aside as far as the shows go from my recollection aside from the 'hero' ship of the day the others were considered more of less of equal capabilities with the tide turner being said hero ship or ingenuity by one of them.

But really most perspectives on capabilities fall from what the 'hero' ships are seen to do. And just like Superman they are as powerful, fast, nimble, and advanced as the plot requires. Nothing more nothing less. And on that note it is off topic but I do have to plug B5 as being one of the few Sci Fi shows where even the most advanced hero ship, the White Stars, did tend to explode an awful lot when attacked by heavy hitters.
While I love me a B5 reference, it's not the best analogy. The White Star was a ship built with technology that was literally centuries ahead of it's time when compared to every comparable space force. This was the reason it was able to take on ships many times it's size, which in the B5 'verse was not something that was normally strategically possible without extensive numerical superiority.

It's also the reason why as the other races continued to advance, White Stars started taking more and more casualties, and necessitated the development of the Excalibur-class Destroyers (which effectively wiped the floor with just about anything it went toe to toe with).
Captain
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 2,285
# 622
01-17-2013, 08:59 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by stirling191 View Post
While I love me a B5 reference, it's not the best analogy. The White Star was a ship built with technology that was literally centuries ahead of it's time when compared to every comparable space force. This was the reason it was able to take on ships many times it's size, which in the B5 'verse was not something that was normally strategically possible without extensive numerical superiority.

It's also the reason why as the other races continued to advance, White Stars started taking more and more casualties, and necessitated the development of the Excalibur-class Destroyers (which effectively wiped the floor with just about anything it went toe to toe with).
They still got toasted by Earth Alliance Destroyers in the war even with that amazing tech and speed was my point is all. Even the 'hero' ship of b5 got spanked quite often. Not to mention how they fared against the Shadow/Vorlon ships, Omega Destroyers, or that other wierd race I can't remember that I steal my 'skin dancing' term from on Cubes.

White Stars had the firepower and the speed but still went pop from the equivalent of a single Beam Overload hit from a cruiser.
Captain
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 3,610
# 623
01-17-2013, 09:07 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by bluegeek View Post
I do think that one possible idea that would give Cruisers a better tactical reason to exist would be more effective long-range striking ability. That would act to give them an initial advantage at ranges where low turn rate is not a problem. That advantage then fades when the range closes and the combat turns into a dogfight, where the Escorts and DHC's shine and the Cruiser's primary defense is survivability, point defenses, and other Escorts.

This would also open up a role for a Recon/SciScort ship that can act as an advance scout seeking out targets on behalf of the long-range attackers and sniffing out cloaked/masked ships trying to sneak into close range.

Another idea is to buff up Beam Arrays in some fashion, so that a cruiser isn't effectively penalized for equipping them. Lots of notions have been floated about how to do that in a way that's fair to all of the classes, and I won't go into any of those in this post.
Yeah, something I've had in mind for a long time, even stated a few months back in a thread. However the only problem here is that even if cruisers become effective artillery craft, distance closing is too easy. I know for a fact that my chel'gret warship can close 10k in about 8 seconds, and my defiant even faster. And then cruisers would get mauled again, due to them being less effective from closer up (as your idea states).

Slightly problematic methinks, if the idea was to make cruisers stronger.
It is said the best weapon is one that is never fired. I disagree. The best weapon is one you only have to fire... once.
Why the Devs can't make PvE content harder. <--- DR proved me wrong!
Captain
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 3,610
# 624
01-17-2013, 09:08 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by bareel View Post
*snip*
And here I was thinking I was the only one who loved the White Star design and was a B5 fan XD.
It is said the best weapon is one that is never fired. I disagree. The best weapon is one you only have to fire... once.
Why the Devs can't make PvE content harder. <--- DR proved me wrong!
Captain
Join Date: Jan 2013
Posts: 3,158
# 625
01-18-2013, 01:49 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by bluegeek View Post
Another idea is to buff up Beam Arrays in some fashion, so that a cruiser isn't effectively penalized for equipping them. Lots of notions have been floated about how to do that in a way that's fair to all of the classes, and I won't go into any of those in this post.
How about a heavy beam array that can only be fitted to cruisers much like DHCs can only be fitted to escorts and battlecruisers, that gives beam arrays a firepower comparable or even superior to DHCs, but with a significant accuracy penalty? Battleship Cruisers wielding these will thus have the kind of firepower you'd expect from ships that are canonically classified as battleships, but they won't make Escorts irrelevant because trying to hit a target like an Escort with one would be an exercise like attempting to swat a fly with a hammer. Capital ships thus deliver pain to each other and to static targets like Cubes, but Escorts retain the superior ability to shoot down things that have somewhat more mobility.
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,750
# 626
01-18-2013, 02:16 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by doffingcomrade View Post
How about a heavy beam array that can only be fitted to cruisers much like DHCs can only be fitted to escorts and battlecruisers, that gives beam arrays a firepower comparable or even superior to DHCs, but with a significant accuracy penalty? Battleship Cruisers wielding these will thus have the kind of firepower you'd expect from ships that are canonically classified as battleships, but they won't make Escorts irrelevant because trying to hit a target like an Escort with one would be an exercise like attempting to swat a fly with a hammer. Capital ships thus deliver pain to each other and to static targets like Cubes, but Escorts retain the superior ability to shoot down things that have somewhat more mobility.
I'm not sure when fed cruisers were "canonically classified" as battleships. I think you meant to say "Dreadnought" which has some basis in canon. Lucky for you, such a ship already exists, the Galaxy-X is ready and waiting for you. Its a huge brick with some really powerful weapons, and can even mount DHCs.
Captain
Join Date: Nov 2012
Posts: 3,477
# 627
01-18-2013, 06:44 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by bareel View Post
They still got toasted by Earth Alliance Destroyers in the war even with that amazing tech and speed was my point is all. Even the 'hero' ship of b5 got spanked quite often. Not to mention how they fared against the Shadow/Vorlon ships, Omega Destroyers, or that other wierd race I can't remember that I steal my 'skin dancing' term from on Cubes.

White Stars had the firepower and the speed but still went pop from the equivalent of a single Beam Overload hit from a cruiser.
To be fair, other cruisers often went pop from the equivalent of a single BO from other cruisers.

I hear you, but they're also about the only ships in B5 that could even be considered "Escorts" as the tech for small, maneuverable gunships carrying firepower to rival battleships simply didn't exist in that 'verse prior to the development of the White Star. And while I may be mistaken, White Stars took very minimal casualties going up against stock Omegas (I want to say it was friendly Auroras and Thunderbolts that were getting hammered in those fights), it wasn't until Clark fielded his hybrid Shadow-tech vessels that the hurt really got dropped on the White Star fleet (and consequently yielded one of my favorite pissed off Russian chick lines ever).

And the species you're trying to remember is Drakh.

Last edited by stirling191; 01-18-2013 at 07:01 AM.
Captain
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 2,285
# 628
01-18-2013, 08:39 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by stirling191 View Post
To be fair, other cruisers often went pop from the equivalent of a single BO from other cruisers.

I hear you, but they're also about the only ships in B5 that could even be considered "Escorts" as the tech for small, maneuverable gunships carrying firepower to rival battleships simply didn't exist in that 'verse prior to the development of the White Star. And while I may be mistaken, White Stars took very minimal casualties going up against stock Omegas (I want to say it was friendly Auroras and Thunderbolts that were getting hammered in those fights), it wasn't until Clark fielded his hybrid Shadow-tech vessels that the hurt really got dropped on the White Star fleet (and consequently yielded one of my favorite pissed off Russian chick lines ever).

And the species you're trying to remember is Drakh.
Some of the Unaligned Races used escort like vessels if I'm not mistaken, like the purple/green dudes if I recall correctly. But yes many of the explosions against earth destroyers were fighters but there were quite a few White Stars that got popped too. Man I loved those fights and one liners, especially the Dalen(sp) line when she showed up at B5 while it was under attack.
Captain
Join Date: Nov 2012
Posts: 3,477
# 629
01-18-2013, 08:49 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by bareel View Post
Some of the Unaligned Races used escort like vessels if I'm not mistaken, like the purple/green dudes if I recall correctly. But yes many of the explosions against earth destroyers were fighters but there were quite a few White Stars that got popped too. Man I loved those fights and one liners, especially the Dalen(sp) line when she showed up at B5 while it was under attack.

From what I recall the only fights we saw between stock Omegas and White Stars were the initial strike against Proxima 3 (I believe one White Star went down there), the opening of the episode where Ivonova learns about the Omega-X (shadow hybrid) Destroyer group (a few got winged but no losses) and the strike against the Loyalist fleet over Mars (again, I believe a few sustained damage but only one or two White Star losses since the majority of the Loyalist were disabled by the weaponized telepaths, the bulk of the losses later in the EP came against Earth's planetary defense satellites).

You're thinking of the Drazi's Sunhawks, which (and I could be completely off base here) were their primary warships because they lacked the industrial capacity to actually build anything larger or more advanced.

It's Delenn, and yes, Straczynski knew how to write.
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,020
# 630
01-18-2013, 09:34 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by hereticknight085 View Post
And here I was thinking I was the only one who loved the White Star design and was a B5 fan XD.
I used to work for the guy that designed it (many of the B5 ships in fact) - amazingly talented man
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