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Empire Veteran
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 6,665
# 11
01-18-2013, 08:04 PM
you guys need to read this paragraph

Quote:
Originally Posted by dontdrunkimshoot View Post
the question is, will they be be fleet ship spec, or stock RA spec when they give them to us. since nether of these ships have any chance of a 3 pack being spawned off of them, i think theres actually a very good chance they will be fleet ship level, and then added to the fleet store after the event. the breen ship having as fleet ship level stats might be set a precedent here too.

since the last few releases have been of ships at fleet level, and because its basically the new baseline, i think these anniversary ships will be fleet ship level. the breen ship, steam runner, and vesta are the newest additions, and all at fleet ship level with enhanced stats and 10 consoles

my ambassador stats mirror the fleet excelsior, that is of course higher then the stats of the the non fleet galaxy. the fleet galaxy has 44k hull though, thats what my proposed ambassador is aimed at.

the klingon ship, i meant for its hiitpoints to be less then the fleet vorcha's, i'll correct that. klingon ships are going to be tactical heavier period. the vassle states are the ones making more sci leaning ships. a universal LTC isn't happening on another cruiser, thats reserved for the ody, vesta, and vet ship


don't blame me that the galaxy and fleet galaxy are a joke, i hate that thats the case. i would love for it to be a viable ship. i would let the fleet galaxy have a 4/3/3 console setup, and

COM eng
LTC eng

LT uni
LT uni
ENS uni


station setup. it could have the traditional starcruiser assault cruiser setup, or something more like the steam runner with 2 like LT and the odd ENS

i think a LTC sci is a better fit on the ambassador. the galaxy was not a sci ship more then it was a battleship. the ambassador is also nearly exactly half the volume of a galaxy, so a 7.5 turn i think is appropriate
gateway links-->Norvo Tigan, Telis Latto Ruwon, Sochie Heim, Solana Soleus
Captain
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 12,690
# 12
01-18-2013, 08:46 PM
That's the thing - are they actually going to be giving a free T5 ship or just a free T3 ship with the T5 variant being a purchase involving Zen (either through the Z-Store or buying Modules)?

The Ambassador's between the Enterprise-A Cruiser and the Enterprise-D Exploration Cruiser. It's a simple T3 between the T2 and T4 there...for the T3 version. Will it be slightly worse than the T3+ Excelsior then?

Then getting into the T5 version - well, T5 can mean so many things.

Is it going to be slightly worse than the RA T5 Excelsior Retrofit? Maybe even slightly worse than the VA T5 Galaxy Retrofit? It just doesn't make sense for it to be better.

Will there be a Fleet Variant? That's entirely a possibility with a T3 < Excelsior and T5 < Excelsior Retrofit being given for free. Both versions would still be worse than a Galaxy. Even with the Fleet Ambassador - it would still end up either being worse than the Fleet Excelsior or perhaps an alternative to the Fleet Excelsior. It would still be worse than the Fleet Galaxy.

The KDF side's more complicated, eh? The Kamarag - a cross between the T3 K't'inga and the T4 Vor'cha? That sets it up as a K't'inga variant, no?

Basically:

T3 Ambassador < T4 Galaxy
T5 Ambassador Re/Retro < T5 Galaxy Retro
Fleet Ambassador < Fleet Galaxy

T3 Kamarag < T4 Vor'cha
T5 Kamarag < T5 Vor'cha Retrofit
Fleet Kamarag < Fleet Tor'Kaht

One might even make the case that the Ambassador should be lower than the Excelsior at each tier...though, I think it's more likely(tbh) that the Ambassador will be an pseudo equivalent variant of the Excelsior. Still, the Ambassador would be lower than the Galaxy.

As for the recent ships - the Steamrunner was a special case/tie-in with Steam. The Vesta's an abomination that should have only had 9 consoles since it has a hangar. The Breen ship is at that "high" VA level...but there's no history for it like there is the Galaxy for the Ambassador.

Years of discussion about them adding the Ambassador has revolved around adding a worse ship - because it was a replaced ship - the Ambassador < Galaxy. There were countless posts by folks describing an Ambassador that was better than the Galaxy... they never made sense. At the same time, there were so many posts by folks that just wanted an "endgame" Ambassador - didn't have to be better than the Galaxy - they just wanted to fly an Ambassador.

There's room for a RA Ambassador and even a Fleet Ambassador... they'd both be "worse" than the Galaxy, whether it's the VA Galaxy or the Fleet Galaxy...
Maal, Klingon, Mogh - Vegar, Orion, Marauder - R'ebel, Romulan, Haakona
Willard the Rat, Reman, F.T'varo - Rave, J.Trill, Kar'Fi - Mysk, Gorn, Varanus
Kopor, Nausicaan, Guramba - Nivuh, Ferasan, B'rel - Venit, Lethean, M.Qin

Last edited by virusdancer; 01-19-2013 at 12:54 AM.
Captain
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 12,690
# 13
01-18-2013, 09:04 PM
I should say, I'm not a fan of the Galaxy in the least. I'm even less of a fan of the Ambassador if that's possible. My concern was more with the KDF side of things, and I'm kind of disappointed that they're tossing out the Kamarag.

Perhaps then, we'll see the K'vort offered if/when they do the Kumari for the Feds?

Oddly enough, in looking at the actual story - it made more sense for them to do the K'vort with the Ambassador (the actual story) and one can easily see where the Kamarag would have gone with the Kumari (pair of battle cruisers)...
Maal, Klingon, Mogh - Vegar, Orion, Marauder - R'ebel, Romulan, Haakona
Willard the Rat, Reman, F.T'varo - Rave, J.Trill, Kar'Fi - Mysk, Gorn, Varanus
Kopor, Nausicaan, Guramba - Nivuh, Ferasan, B'rel - Venit, Lethean, M.Qin
Empire Veteran
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 6,665
# 14
01-18-2013, 09:13 PM
think of my stats as what these ship's fleet level version should look like. the whole tier 3 and 5 thing is stupid and years out of date of a concept at this point. just add the ship at RA level, and then launch a fleet version at the same time. or just offer the fleet level version, and let anyone who misses the event buy them from the fleet store.

i think the version we will get is at least going to be a RA level. and at the same time the tier 3 version will be added to the c store, most likely with a console to give it a reason to exist at all.

as far as the galaxy>ambassador thing goes, don't let canon cloud your reasoning. i know, it SHOULD mater, but it doesn't and it wont. LTC sci is just a niche that makes sense for it. its got shrimpy phaser arrays by modern standards, it should be tactically inferior to the galaxy, VERY tactically inferior. so we balance that with stronger sci, thats why a dinky intrepid can be at the same tier as a galaxy. the ambassador and sovereign are basically the same volume, really its just an older sovereign as far as cruiser ranking goes. it continues to be a crime that the game is set up so every attribute the galaxy has counts as a disadvantage, but thats what we got, and they wont even acknowledge its a problem.

as far as the kdf ships go, the neg var should be twice as powerful and dangerous as a vorcha, but again, the game favors small and maneuverable, those are always good, large is always bad. its a joke that those ships are at the same level. but oh well. my ktinga beats both their ass, proboly the biggest crime against ship logic of all. as far as the Kamarag goes, count on it to be the kdf's excelsior. the excelsior hardly makes sense too, at least the Kamarag is a few decades newer.
gateway links-->Norvo Tigan, Telis Latto Ruwon, Sochie Heim, Solana Soleus
Captain
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 12,690
# 15
01-18-2013, 10:36 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by dontdrunkimshoot View Post
think of my stats as what these ship's fleet level version should look like. the whole tier 3 and 5 thing is stupid and years out of date of a concept at this point. just add the ship at RA level, and then launch a fleet version at the same time. or just offer the fleet level version, and let anyone who misses the event buy them from the fleet store.

i think the version we will get is at least going to be a RA level. and at the same time the tier 3 version will be added to the c store, most likely with a console to give it a reason to exist at all.
Yeah, adding a T3 to me is mind boggling. Leveling is just so fast in this game - outside of the person that might play an hour every week or two, what's the point of adding a T3 ship?

I suppose I could see them doing the 1k Zen to buy the console - keeping it separate so they can charge more overall for the combination of the T3 and Fleet (Modules) variants - while tossing out the free RA/VA ship.

Quote:
Originally Posted by dontdrunkimshoot View Post
as far as the galaxy>ambassador thing goes, don't let canon cloud your reasoning. i know, it SHOULD mater, but it doesn't and it wont. LTC sci is just a niche that makes sense for it. its got shrimpy phaser arrays by modern standards, it should be tactically inferior to the galaxy, VERY tactically inferior. so we balance that with stronger sci, thats why a dinky intrepid can be at the same tier as a galaxy. the ambassador and sovereign are basically the same volume, really its just an older sovereign as far as cruiser ranking goes. it continues to be a crime that the game is set up so every attribute the galaxy has counts as a disadvantage, but thats what we got, and they wont even acknowledge its a problem.
Heh, guess it's hard to get passed over almost a year's arguing with all those Ambassador folks out there about where the ship would fit in and what's the point of Cryptic putting so much effort into it...meh.

I try not to think too much about how they have the Galaxy, Defiant, and Intrepid at the same level...I really try not to think about that, lol. It makes me want to go have a ciggy, walk around the block, and all that sort of thing. The way the game's set up - it would be like watching TNG with a Defiant or Intrepid, watching VOY with a Galaxy or Defiant, and watching DS9 with a Galaxy or Intrepid.

Quote:
Originally Posted by dontdrunkimshoot View Post
as far as the kdf ships go, the neg var should be twice as powerful and dangerous as a vorcha, but again, the game favors small and maneuverable, those are always good, large is always bad. its a joke that those ships are at the same level. but oh well. my ktinga beats both their ass, proboly the biggest crime against ship logic of all. as far as the Kamarag goes, count on it to be the kdf's excelsior. the excelsior hardly makes sense too, at least the Kamarag is a few decades newer.
The Negh'var was the "flagship" before the Bortas...sure isn't treated that way. The Vo'quv is a "dread" and it sure isn't treated that way.

As for the Kamarag - they say prototypes were built in the mid-24th century. Kamarag was the Klingon Ambassador to the Federation in the late 23rd century. The K't'inga started service in the late 23rd century (a decade or so before Kamarag was Ambassador) and were still in service into the late 24th century. The Vor'cha started to take over at that point - around 100 years after the K't'inga was introduced. For a short period (<5 years), they were even the "flagship" until the Negh'var took over.

Bah, none of my rambling matters - we all know what's going to happen:

X Players are going to scream that they're OP.
Y Players are going to scream that they're UP.

Right?
Maal, Klingon, Mogh - Vegar, Orion, Marauder - R'ebel, Romulan, Haakona
Willard the Rat, Reman, F.T'varo - Rave, J.Trill, Kar'Fi - Mysk, Gorn, Varanus
Kopor, Nausicaan, Guramba - Nivuh, Ferasan, B'rel - Venit, Lethean, M.Qin
Empire Veteran
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 6,665
# 16
01-18-2013, 11:01 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by virusdancer View Post

Bah, none of my rambling matters - we all know what's going to happen:

X Players are going to scream that they're OP.
Y Players are going to scream that they're UP.

Right?
it depends on if they screw with us and give us non fleet ship level ships or not. the new kdf ship is certainly the missing link between the vorcha and ktinga. ktinga was around in the 2270s, the vorcha proboly a product of the 2350s, and the negvar 2370 or so. the Kamarag is proboly from about 2320 or 2330. so for it and the ambassador, its conceivable that they are about at the end of their shelf life, and by around 2409 would get their final overhaul. something like the excelsior, which was rotten on the vines in the 2370, just no excuse what so ever being in this game. the ktinga i could see being used for very limited roles, and a tier 1 ship, but nothing beyond that. the connie, god no, they havent built ships that size in that shape for 100 years.
gateway links-->Norvo Tigan, Telis Latto Ruwon, Sochie Heim, Solana Soleus
Starfleet Veteran
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,618
# 17
01-18-2013, 11:17 PM
Personally I wouldn't mind the Kamarang being an Klingonified Excelsior.

Not sure the transwarp powers would be included but that would be nice too.
Actualy reading things pefore posting will make you look smarter than yelling loudly. Reading comprehension is aparently a lost art.

Not everything you see on the internet is true - Abriham Lincoln
Captain
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 12,690
# 18
01-19-2013, 12:54 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by dontdrunkimshoot View Post
it depends on if they screw with us and give us non fleet ship level ships or not. the new kdf ship is certainly the missing link between the vorcha and ktinga. ktinga was around in the 2270s, the vorcha proboly a product of the 2350s, and the negvar 2370 or so. the Kamarag is proboly from about 2320 or 2330. so for it and the ambassador, its conceivable that they are about at the end of their shelf life, and by around 2409 would get their final overhaul. something like the excelsior, which was rotten on the vines in the 2370, just no excuse what so ever being in this game. the ktinga i could see being used for very limited roles, and a tier 1 ship, but nothing beyond that. the connie, god no, they havent built ships that size in that shape for 100 years.
The K't'inga entered service in the early 2270s.
The Vor'cha entered service in the mid-to-late 2360s.
The Negh'var entered service in the early 2370s.

Their little spiel on the Kamarag has it in service during the mid-24th century.

The Ambassador supposedly entered service around 2325, with the events of "Yesterday's Enterprise" taking place in 2344 (as far as the Ambassador side of things). They were still in service in 2367/2368 for the Klingon Civil War and were also even around in 2374 in a DS9 episode.

The K't'inga was still a frontline ship even during the Dominion War in the early 2370s. The Vor'cha and the Negh'var were still just starting out, so to speak...the K't'inga saw a lot of upgrades over that century - from flying against Connies, Excelsiors, etc, etc, etc.

To an extent, that's kind of what it feels like they may be trying to do with the Kamarag. They picked a name from a guy that was an Ambassador - they went with a period of time after which he would have been dead...and it's possible that the Kamarag was in service around the same time: 2325-late2350s? Not a very long time, eh? Maybe the Kamarag came before the Ambassador by a brief period...

...with both the Kamarag and Ambassador being replaced by the Vor'cha and Galaxy respectively because of jumps in technology/changing needs.

As each new "flagship" was introduced, the previous "flagship" became a more common ship, and the previous previous became more of a workhorse, etc, etc, etc.

On the Fed side, the Odyssey's the new flagship. So the Sovereign would become the more common ship and the Galaxy would become the workhorse. What's the Ambassador? Course, the same (only worse) could be said of the Excelsior...eh?

On the KDF side, the Bortas is the new flagship. The Negh'var becoming the more common ship and the Vor'cha the workhorse? (Heh, okay - not in STO). Here though, it would be the case of asking what does that mean the K't'inga is...? But, they're introducing a ship after the K't'inga...so bam, what's happening to the Kamarag and the K't'inga?

In a sense, it's dropping the K't'inga down to the Excelsior level. Well, given they added the Fleet Excelsior... yeah, the Kamarag and Ambassador as Fleet ships makes sense (in STO fashion).

Many of the vessels we see in the game, would have long ago been relegated to pseudo planetary defense - basically figurehead ships - showing a presence, so to speak. The Connie Refits...Enterprise-A...along with Mirandas and the rest...even there, it would be difficult to justify the expense of keeping them running in such a manner when they would have been replaced by newer Escorts that run with a lower TCO.

Hrmm, this seems to have stepped over way to the left of the discussion stats though...

...in looking at your versions vs. the Fleet Galaxy and Fleet Tor'Kaht - yeah, in that regard - can see them being along those lines.
Maal, Klingon, Mogh - Vegar, Orion, Marauder - R'ebel, Romulan, Haakona
Willard the Rat, Reman, F.T'varo - Rave, J.Trill, Kar'Fi - Mysk, Gorn, Varanus
Kopor, Nausicaan, Guramba - Nivuh, Ferasan, B'rel - Venit, Lethean, M.Qin
Captain
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 12,690
# 19
01-19-2013, 02:11 AM
Okay, how about this for the Kamarag (@Fleet) based on something I was considering and posted in another of the threads.

Kamarag Science Cruiser

Crew: 1000
Hull: 35000
Shield Modifier: 1.2
Turn Rate: 10
Inertia Rating: 40
Weapons:
- Fore 3
- Aft 3
Consoles:
- Tac 3
- Eng 4
- Sci 3
Lt Tac
LCdr Eng
Ens Eng

Cmdr Sci
Lt Uni
Maal, Klingon, Mogh - Vegar, Orion, Marauder - R'ebel, Romulan, Haakona
Willard the Rat, Reman, F.T'varo - Rave, J.Trill, Kar'Fi - Mysk, Gorn, Varanus
Kopor, Nausicaan, Guramba - Nivuh, Ferasan, B'rel - Venit, Lethean, M.Qin
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 768
# 20
01-19-2013, 03:34 AM
Honestly, I expect it'll be similar to the Breen ship, statwise.


CMDR Tac
LTC Eng
LT Sci
LT Tac
Ensign Universal
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