Empire Veteran
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 6,766
# 651
01-18-2013, 07:41 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by bareel View Post
The best way to buff cruisers is to buff beams as well.

Heavy Beam Array (Cruiser Only and some Sci Vessels like Nebula perhaps)
9 Energy Drain
240 Arc (10 less than standard)
+5% accuracy
200 base damage (base is 100 for standard beam array)
Fires 2 pulses per cycle (instead of 4 like standard beam array)
Forward Mount Only

Give cruisers an innate 10% damage reduction as well that applies to all damage before shields and/or hull resists are taken into account. Done, fixed.
So to you a fair balance is a HB with only a 10 degree reduction in firing arc, a 1 point difference in drain but a +5% bonus to accuracy, 200 base damage at mk1 which is 12 points higher than mk1 DHC?

With a FA of 240 to fire broad side enough to make movement unneccassary and a bonus to accuracy why would anyone fly escorts anymore?

One could fly almost every cruiser in escort-esque style cycling BOs + EPTW or AtB with turrets or Beam arrays in the aft and do away with escorts all together.

Doesnt seem like a completely fair idea to me.

I do like the 10% bonus defense one though. It fits the idea of Cruisers being massive as a form of defense (though I expect BCs will get something too) and is balanced to the Escorts bonus 10% defense for speed.
Richard Hamilton (1975-2014)
goodbye good friend. We will see you in the DMZ in the sky oneday, save a shot for us.
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,709
# 652
01-19-2013, 01:32 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by bareel View Post

Give cruisers an innate 10% damage reduction as well that applies to all damage before shields and/or hull resists are taken into account. Done, fixed.
Its weird, I think you're one of the players that understands the number crunching that goes on behind the scenes better than I do, but you repeatedly miss the point.

The idea is that cruisers may be giving up too much to be tankier than they could possibly need to be, and here you are suggesting they be made tankier as a solution to your perceived under performing DPS?

No.

That is a non solution, it would fix nothing but necessitating escorts have their DPS upped considerably for any non escort kills to occur in PvP. That is all it would do since the one shots of insta-death in PvE would still get through.

Besides, my opinion is that mobility in the way of a +1 or +2 to turning is what cruisers really need.
Captain
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 2,160
# 653
01-19-2013, 02:42 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by bitemepwe View Post
So to you a fair balance is a HB with only a 10 degree reduction in firing arc, a 1 point difference in drain but a +5% bonus to accuracy, 200 base damage at mk1 which is 12 points higher than mk1 DHC?

With a FA of 240 to fire broad side enough to make movement unneccassary and a bonus to accuracy why would anyone fly escorts anymore?

One could fly almost every cruiser in escort-esque style cycling BOs + EPTW or AtB with turrets or Beam arrays in the aft and do away with escorts all together.

Doesnt seem like a completely fair idea to me.

I do like the 10% bonus defense one though. It fits the idea of Cruisers being massive as a form of defense (though I expect BCs will get something too) and is balanced to the Escorts bonus 10% defense for speed.
You miss the part where they fired half as many shots as a beam array, but with the same firing cycle time. Basically exactly like a DHC does compared to a DC (Same DPS, different DPV). And yes battlecruisers should gain the damage reduction as well although if fed whales did not get a turn rate buff at the same time then it should not be the full 10% instead 8%ish.

Quote:
Originally Posted by skyranger1414 View Post
Its weird, I think you're one of the players that understands the number crunching that goes on behind the scenes better than I do, but you repeatedly miss the point.

The idea is that cruisers may be giving up too much to be tankier than they could possibly need to be, and here you are suggesting they be made tankier as a solution to your perceived under performing DPS?

No.

That is a non solution, it would fix nothing but necessitating escorts have their DPS upped considerably for any non escort kills to occur in PvP. That is all it would do since the one shots of insta-death in PvE would still get through.

Besides, my opinion is that mobility in the way of a +1 or +2 to turning is what cruisers really need.
More like the fact that the escort hull has more built in tank and a better scaling tank than a cruiser in PvE and that is fundamentally wrong even if the vast majority have no clue that it is in fact true. That is just not right and annoys me.

Turn rate, atleast from a PvE and math perspective, is a quality of life issue. I do think it would be a good idea to increase it and I can see the benefit from a player standpoint.

Finally PvP has no real balance. Instead it relies upon the 'perceived balance of how it should be' by various players and groups inside it. They each have there concept of how it should work by declaring various things overpowered or cheap which then has extreme ripple effects when they do become banned. Don't get me wrong, the majority of things are overpowered and cheap in PvP but the entire system gets all out of whack to begin with at the extremes.
Captain
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 3,130
# 654
01-19-2013, 04:00 AM
What is it with all this "if cruisers get a buff nobody would fly escorts"?

Even if cruisers did the same damage as escorts people would still play escorts for the same reason people play science ships: the play style.

Some people enjoy the craptastic damage your typical science ship does due to the fact you can play with your enemies and annoy them even with the post-nerf sci skills. Just as some people enjoy the cruiser style of play despite the fact they don't play tank and try to do damage without dual EPtS and EPtWs.

Yes those who insist upon playing the most powerful ships will move from escorts to cruisers but we will see a higher percentage of good escort players as they would be played by people who like that playstyle and not by those who just want max damage output...

So yeah... Why would nobody fly an escort?
Captain
Join Date: Jan 2013
Posts: 3,158
# 655
01-19-2013, 04:45 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by bareel View Post
The best way to buff cruisers is to buff beams as well.

Heavy Beam Array (Cruiser Only and some Sci Vessels like Nebula perhaps)
9 Energy Drain
240 Arc (10 less than standard)
+5% accuracy
200 base damage (base is 100 for standard beam array)
Fires 2 pulses per cycle (instead of 4 like standard beam array)
Forward Mount Only
I disagree with this: Instead of raising the accuracy, and leaving DPS basically the same, raise the damage to levels competitive with cannons, and LOWER the accuracy: It gives cruisers the role of the capital ship back, as they'll have the kind of firepower to suit it...without giving them the ability to pop escorts with it.
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,209
# 656
01-19-2013, 09:32 AM
Long term, I believe all raising or lowering the accuracy of the beams would really accomplish is alter the value of the ACC modifier on uncommon (or better) weapons on the exchange.

I suspect those who claim that the firing cycle and power drain of beam weapons are responsible for their low DPS are onto something; but the more I think about it, the more convinced I am that the biggest problem with beams is that the powers that benefit them the most just aren't available to the majority of the ships that rely on beam weapons (certainly not the higher ranks of those powers anyway).
Exploration suggestions thread - give it a read

BTW, you'd pronounce it 'Cap'n Manks'

I protest the removal of exploration clusters
Captain
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 2,160
# 657
01-19-2013, 09:52 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by capnmanx View Post
Long term, I believe all raising or lowering the accuracy of the beams would really accomplish is alter the value of the ACC modifier on uncommon (or better) weapons on the exchange.

I suspect those who claim that the firing cycle and power drain of beam weapons are responsible for their low DPS are onto something; but the more I think about it, the more convinced I am that the biggest problem with beams is that the powers that benefit them the most just aren't available to the majority of the ships that rely on beam weapons (certainly not the higher ranks of those powers anyway).
Like cruisers beams do not suffer from a singular issue. It is a compound issue.

1) Low base damage. Let us be honest, Arc size does not matter when looking at a singular weapon instead it is the combined damage of the weapons in the arc and two beams are not as high DPS as a single DHC+Turret.

2) Power Drain Mechanics are problematic, DHCs fire at full power, beams fire at lower powers for most of their shots. Lower weapon power multipliers.

3) Buffs are situational, not strait up damage multipliers.

4) Damage drop off bonus compared to cannons would be great if the raw higher damage of cannons did not already negate this boon.

5) Lack of supporting weapons. Fortunately the Cutting Beam semi-solves this.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 185
# 658
01-19-2013, 11:03 AM
The problem is not the cruisers, the problem is the whole combat system (focused on single character career (why bother with engs and scis if with 5 tacs u can do anything, easier and faster)) needing to be re-do from scratch.

The NPCs need real AI instead of the zombies that we have as enemies.
Eng ships do NOT need stronger weapons, need real aoe healling skills and a real active taunt skill.
Scis need better aoe buffs and debuffs.
Tacs need less hull/shield/res.

And then, after the basics, we can argue about the tunning of ACC and stuff that, by its own, wont fix the game if the rest of the combat is broken, as it is.
Empire Veteran
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 6,766
# 659
01-19-2013, 11:28 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by bareel View Post
You miss the part where they fired half as many shots as a beam array, but with the same firing cycle time. Basically exactly like a DHC does compared to a DC (Same DPS, different DPV). And yes battlecruisers should gain the damage reduction as well although if fed whales did not get a turn rate buff at the same time then it should not be the full 10% instead 8%ish
Your right, I did miss that. So I'll ask again.

How is it fair to gameplay if Heavy Beams have -

1) The same efficiency of power use of a DHC but with a lower drain rate modifier???
2) Do more damage than DHCs ????
3) Have a 240 degree firing arc so movement is no longer as important, even if they are front mount only????
4) And a bonus +5% to Accuracy

Why would anyone use any thing but Heavy Beams? How is that fair and balanced to have weapon that has all the best of DHCs, none of the handicaps and is only for Cruisers?

As to the 10% bonus resistance for Cruisers, I already stated I liked that idea and agreed ,whether Cruisers got the 1-2 point turn rate buff or not.
Richard Hamilton (1975-2014)
goodbye good friend. We will see you in the DMZ in the sky oneday, save a shot for us.
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,209
# 660
01-19-2013, 11:32 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by wirtdd View Post
The problem is not the cruisers, the problem is the whole combat system (focused on single character career (why bother with engs and scis if with 5 tacs u can do anything, easier and faster)) needing to be re-do from scratch.

The NPCs need real AI instead of the zombies that we have as enemies.
Eng ships do NOT need stronger weapons, need real aoe healling skills and a real active taunt skill.
Scis need better aoe buffs and debuffs.
Tacs need less hull/shield/res.

And then, after the basics, we can argue about the tunning of ACC and stuff that, by its own, wont fix the game if the rest of the combat is broken, as it is.
Well, I agree that there are problems with the captain career paths too, they are not the whole of the problem.

Look at it this way, these days we see sci ships as being about buff/debuffs; I used to kill things with those powers (not just dumb AI either, I had a GW + CPB + WP combo that wrecked in PVP). I should point out that this was not with a tac captain. Every ship type is supposed to be able to fight by some means (regardless of who or what is flying it); they have to be, since most of this game is played solo.

Now, cruisers have more guns than any other type of ship; that's a pretty clear sign that they are supposed to be using those to kill stuff, not just sit about healing things or soaking up damage.
Exploration suggestions thread - give it a read

BTW, you'd pronounce it 'Cap'n Manks'

I protest the removal of exploration clusters
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