Starfleet Veteran
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 891
# 91
01-19-2013, 05:59 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by markhawkman View Post
I didn't see Ent as being that similar. Which specific episodes are you thinking of? Aside from both episodes having Nazis, Storm Front and Patterns of Force have almost nothing in common with each other.

At any rate, I saw Storm Front as a way to do a final wrap up to the TCW arc. And well, it was better than most of the rest of the TCW.... Except the Sphere builders.... that part was kinda cool.
He isn't comparing the two occurrences of space Nazis against each other, he is pointing out that overall, Enterprise was just tired tropes and plot rehashes. We had space Nazi's. We had a version of Journey to Babel, we had Organians. Hell, they even retconned TNG with the Frozen Borg episode.

Know why I think TOS gets a pass on some of those hokey plots? They did them first, and usually better, with nothing near the budget Enterprise enjoyed.

Overall, I found Enterprise to be very disappointing. The time travelling space Nazis were just the final straw for me. I did really enjoy the mirror universe episodes, thou - one instance where something old was re-done well (except I thought that Evil-Archer was a little overly psychotic)
Rihannsu
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 13,030
# 92
01-19-2013, 07:12 PM
Ok, which "tropes" are you specifically thinking of? Aliens trying to take over Earth in the past? Space Blood Feuds? Mysterious races that get seen once and never again? Super artifacts that could destroy civilization as we know it? Alien Warlords who don't like us? Super aliens that are stupidly powerful?

Um, let's face it.... most of those are ST staples....

I actually thought that the Xindi were a pretty novel idea. Sure some people will go "They're just x, y, and z." Meh.... most of the tropes used in TOS were rehashed from older scifi. Go watch Flash Gordon and Buck Rogers some time.

And yes, I loved Empress Hoshi.
HAIL HYDRA!

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Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 11,100
# 93
01-19-2013, 09:00 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by boglejam73 View Post
He isn't comparing the two occurrences of space Nazis against each other, he is pointing out that overall, Enterprise was just tired tropes and plot rehashes. We had space Nazi's. We had a version of Journey to Babel, we had Organians. Hell, they even retconned TNG with the Frozen Borg episode.

Know why I think TOS gets a pass on some of those hokey plots? They did them first, and usually better, with nothing near the budget Enterprise enjoyed.
This is pretty much exactly what I said. But yes, Enterprise was just rehashed through and through. The Borg and Ferengi episodes are perfect examples.

Quote:
Originally Posted by boglejam73 View Post
Overall, I found Enterprise to be very disappointing. The time travelling space Nazis were just the final straw for me. I did really enjoy the mirror universe episodes, thou - one instance where something old was re-done well (except I thought that Evil-Archer was a little overly psychotic)
And regular Archer wasn't?

Quote:
Originally Posted by markhawkman View Post
Ok, which "tropes" are you specifically thinking of? Aliens trying to take over Earth in the past? Space Blood Feuds? Mysterious races that get seen once and never again? Super artifacts that could destroy civilization as we know it? Alien Warlords who don't like us? Super aliens that are stupidly powerful?

Um, let's face it.... most of those are ST staples....
There is "Staple" and then there is "This no longer has any cultural relevance".

Quote:
Originally Posted by markhawkman View Post
I actually thought that the Xindi were a pretty novel idea. Sure some people will go "They're just x, y, and z."
I did like the Xindi as a race. The idea of these bizarre creatures working together as one is pretty cool. I just didn't really like the story that introduced them.
http://i1151.photobucket.com/albums/o633/centersolace/189cux9khvl6ojpg_zpsca7ccff0.jpg

So inhumane superweapons, mass murder, and canon nonsense is okay, but speedos are too much for some people.

Last edited by centersolace; 01-19-2013 at 09:05 PM.
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 3,277
# 94
01-19-2013, 09:08 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by centersolace View Post
And regular Archer wasn't?
I thought Archer was great. He may not have been a "perfect" character like Picard, but that's the whole point - humanity was taking its first steps into the galaxy, and the NX-01 crew had to learn from their mistakes. I think by the end of the show, Archer had matured and improved a lot.
"It's not safe out here. It's wondrous, with treasures to satiate desires both subtle and gross. But it's not for the timid."
-- Q
Rihannsu
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 13,030
# 95
01-19-2013, 09:46 PM
Quote:
There is "Staple" and then there is "This no longer has any cultural relevance".
Got examples? (other than the Na'kuhl)
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MMOs aren't charities. Corporations are supposed to make a profit. It's what they do.
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 11,100
# 96
01-19-2013, 10:47 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by psycoticvulcan View Post
I thought Archer was great. He may not have been a "perfect" character like Picard, but that's the whole point - humanity was taking its first steps into the galaxy, and the NX-01 crew had to learn from their mistakes. I think by the end of the show, Archer had matured and improved a lot.
I never said he was a bad character. Flawed characters are the most interesting ones after all. He just never struck me as Captain material. I always thought that Archer should have been more like Sisko or Chief O'Brien. A military man and father to his crew sort of thing.

Quote:
Originally Posted by markhawkman View Post
Got examples? (other than the Na'kuhl)
Nazis.

Time Travel.

Villains we've already seen before. (Borg, Ferengi, Etc.)

"What is love?" plots.

"Humanity is infectious" plots.

Time Travel.

Forced fanservice (That damn Decon room).

The Borg.

And most importantly time Travel.

Basically, the reason why I hate Enterprise, and why I think a lot of other people do too, is that the things that should have been changed weren't, and the things that should have stayed the same were changed. (Theme song anyone?)
http://i1151.photobucket.com/albums/o633/centersolace/189cux9khvl6ojpg_zpsca7ccff0.jpg

So inhumane superweapons, mass murder, and canon nonsense is okay, but speedos are too much for some people.
Republic Veteran
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 3,232
# 97
01-19-2013, 10:58 PM
I like it, then again I can't say I really disliked anything trek except maybe the JJ movie. I know they were good with screwing with continuity...like the Borg showing up...then again there was knowledge of the Borg back in the lat 23rd century yet there was no knowledge till the D was sent ahead by Q.

I'm really disappointed it never made it to the next season...I love Romulans and would of loved to see the season that deals with them.
Rihannsu
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 13,030
# 98
01-20-2013, 09:30 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by centersolace View Post
Time Travel.

Villains we've already seen before. (Borg, Ferengi, Etc.)

"What is love?" plots.

"Humanity is infectious" plots.

Forced fanservice (That damn Decon room).

Basically, the reason why I hate Enterprise, and why I think a lot of other people do too, is that the things that should have been changed weren't, and the things that should have stayed the same were changed. (Theme song anyone?)
Hmm.... that's not a very long list when you remove the redundant stuff. Most of it is vague concepts that are perennial ST plots.... (Sci-fi always has fanservice.... always. The decon plot was overkill, but still...)

Honestly I think Ent should have been MORE about going where ST has gone before. It's a prequel.... A prequel should not have a crapload of new stuff. Some yes, but I think Ent over did it there.
HAIL HYDRA!

-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
I can haz joystick!
MMOs aren't charities. Corporations are supposed to make a profit. It's what they do.
Captain
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 546
# 99
01-20-2013, 09:50 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by markhawkman View Post
Hmm.... that's not a very long list when you remove the redundant stuff. Most of it is vague concepts that are perennial ST plots.... (Sci-fi always has fanservice.... always. The decon plot was overkill, but still...)

Honestly I think Ent should have been MORE about going where ST has gone before. It's a prequel.... A prequel should not have a crapload of new stuff. Some yes, but I think Ent over did it there.
The bolded part is something I agree with as having grown up loving Sci-fi and if you want to argue that...let me point you in the direction of Flash Gordon and a few others as well. If you want to disagree this point, let me point you at the likes of Inara and River Tams and to the even more riduclous lengths anime sci-fi will go to for Fanservice. Warning, this pic is of Anime Catians, not STO Catians.


So yeah, I think me being an anime fan helped me to enjoy Enterprise despite it's flaws as well as liking the song.
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 11,100
# 100
01-20-2013, 02:53 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by markhawkman View Post
Hmm.... that's not a very long list when you remove the redundant stuff. Most of it is vague concepts that are perennial ST plots.... (Sci-fi always has fanservice.... always. The decon plot was overkill, but still...)
Quote:
Originally Posted by raventomoe View Post
The bolded part is something I agree with as having grown up loving Sci-fi and if you want to argue that...let me point you in the direction of Flash Gordon and a few others as well. If you want to disagree this point, let me point you at the likes of Inara and River Tams and to the even more riduclous lengths anime sci-fi will go to for Fanservice. Warning, this pic is of Anime Catians, not STO Catians.
How quickly people forget my signature. Not only do I enjoy fanservice I actively support it. It's just when it's disgustingly, eyeball scratchingly painful as the Decon plot things...... Gaaah!

Quote:
Originally Posted by markhawkman View Post
Honestly I think Ent should have been MORE about going where ST has gone before. It's a prequel.... A prequel should not have a crapload of new stuff. Some yes, but I think Ent over did it there.
I agree. The issue with ENT is that it went with the Borg, the Ferengi and the like which is where we have gone a thousand times before!

ENT should have been more about the Vulcans, Andorians, Tellarites and things like that. Things that we've seen a lot of, but we don't know a lot about.
http://i1151.photobucket.com/albums/o633/centersolace/189cux9khvl6ojpg_zpsca7ccff0.jpg

So inhumane superweapons, mass murder, and canon nonsense is okay, but speedos are too much for some people.
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