Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,113
# 11
01-21-2013, 03:13 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by dareau View Post
...

Alternate solution - new damage type(s), for example, we create new damage classes "particle" and "graviton". Particle will be science's "energy" damage, Graviton "kinetic". Tachyon beam, CPB, feedback now issues particle damage, and GW / Tractor beam / TBR / PSW issue graviton damage. This way we don't blow the balance between anti-shield (energy) skills and anti-hull (kinetic) skills.

...
New science-y damage types that don't benefit from tac buffs. Now that is a very good idea. I miss being able to kill things with science, I really do.
Exploration suggestions thread - give it a read

BTW, you'd pronounce it 'Cap'n Manks'

I protest the removal of exploration clusters
Starfleet Veteran
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 14
# 12
01-21-2013, 03:16 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by dareau View Post
Looking at it, GW, Tractor Beam, TBR, PSW - all deal kinetic damage. Feedback pulse deals, IIRC (as I don't use it a lot) either a generic "energy" type or a reflection of what damage is being used. Same with CPB, but I think CPB is tachyon along with Tachyon beam - which accounts for, as far as I know, all the science damage-dealers. Of course, tachyon & kinetic are 100% affected by the tac captain buffs, since they share the damage type of existing weapons - the game just checks damage type, not source.

Problem identified. Cryptic's current solution is to reduce these damages to the point that they aren't a problem when combined with tac skills. Side effect is to reduce the ability for science ships to deal skill-based damage. To bring science damage levels "back" to the point they were pre-nerf, Cryptic has been releasing all sorts of "alternate" Science damages - carriers (pet DPS), Vesta-Aventine Lance, Temporal "reset" that saves science ship but not the remaining target(s), cannons on Vesta, etc.

".
That was changed a long time ago, a sci with GW3 and some extra points/consoles/deflector in particle generators will do a lot more damage with it then a tac - guess why u seldom see tacs in sciships anymore. Look at the description of AP:A - it will boost weapon damage, not every damage. Most people with a TAC in a MVAE will put a shield or hull heal at their ltnt. cmdr. sci slot for pvp.

Regards
Captain
Join Date: Nov 2012
Posts: 1,133
# 13
01-21-2013, 03:19 PM
Oh well, you can fly a STF with 5 Scischips (real Sci ships, so no Vesta or Wells. Even without an Attrox) and do it. Its all a matter how you build works. Same for Cruisers. If you cant do more than lets say 5k DPS, you are flying your Cruiser wrong. Sci might do little less damage, but they have plenty of nice abilities to compensate.

Even though Escorts are relatively easy to fly, most people cant do that either. My Ody ownes most of the escorts out there with ease. While tanking TacCube+Gate and doing its 6k DPS. And that built is an conservative one with EptW 1...
Captain
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 658
# 14
01-21-2013, 04:11 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by dareau View Post
Looking at it, GW, Tractor Beam, TBR, PSW - all deal kinetic damage. Feedback pulse deals, IIRC (as I don't use it a lot) either a generic "energy" type or a reflection of what damage is being used. Same with CPB, but I think CPB is tachyon along with Tachyon beam - which accounts for, as far as I know, all the science damage-dealers.

...

Alternate solution - new damage type(s), for example, we create new damage classes "particle" and "graviton". Particle will be science's "energy" damage, Graviton "kinetic". Tachyon beam, CPB, feedback now issues particle damage, and GW / Tractor beam / TBR / PSW issue graviton damage. This way we don't blow the balance between anti-shield (energy) skills and anti-hull (kinetic) skills.
That's actually already been implemented. Sci kinetic damage is now totally separate from other kinetic damage, and shield drains have their own special way of dealing shield only damage. That's been the case for several months. But they still keep nerfing them over and over again. My CPB used to be able to strip half a facing off a medium level PvE target like a Sphere or Escort, but now, with the same skills, I can't even see the effects.
Lieutenant
Join Date: Jan 2013
Posts: 86
# 15
01-21-2013, 05:13 PM
I agree.

I have the patrol escort on my sci officer, can tank as much as my wells easily just by cycling defensive skills appropriately and having decent timing when using them, also does alot more DPS than my wells.

Though i still currently am only flying the wells, even though the escort is, far, superior.
Commander
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 374
# 16
01-21-2013, 06:54 PM
This is a lot of posts for 1 day. I am surprised.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bareel View Post
Argh. Holy Trinity BAD Mkay? We do not need missions that 'require' a tank. We need cruisers and sci vessels to become more effective at killing things. The best option is to make them effective at killing things differently than escorts but I highly doubt that is a possible option.

To all the 'we need content that requires a tank' I say fine I"ll bring my armatige that has such a high bonus defense only 1 in 4 shots hit her and did I mention she has max shield resist thanks to EPTS 3?

Or the 'we need content that requires CC' I say thats fine too, I got an MVAE and a timeship although the Vesta really isn't that shabby either for the job.

- Fix beams, either with a new 'cruiser only + some sci' beam array or just fix them in general.

- Fix damage scaling of boff abilities so a skilled gravity well + tractor beam can do more than tickle a target without breaking PvP

- Create engagements that require variety, such as gateways that nearly insta-kill anything within 8km so beams can be more effective in that situation. Enemies with a high defense and maneuver quickly to make accuracy important and are difficult to keep in the front arc without an immobilize. An enemy with 75% shield resist and 50k shields but paper thin hull so bypassing the shield is more effective than whittling it down.
I agree with so much of this post!

- Cruisers and Science vessels should get a damage bonus for using beams.

- I agree with the idea of making each type of ship effective at dealing damage in a different way. Sure, escorts can unload everything on a target, but Science vessels have a more laidback, tactile fighting style that involves using their (not useless) powers.

- Its not so much we need tanking content, but more the content we have should be tankable. I'll be blunt here, it seems to me running STFs benefits Escort/Tactical Captains the most, because

a) They deal the most damage, and can therefore kill things the quickest where they'd need to.

b) The other options are tanking and science powers. Science powers do not have enough effect in any situation that it'd be a better alternative to big guns, and tanking...Elite STFs...I shouldn't have to say anything. When you'll die anyway, its better to have big guns.
More anything?
"MORE EVERYTHING!"
-Jerry Seinfeld on Star Trek Online Content

Foundry Works: Uncharted
Empire Veteran
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 510
# 17
01-22-2013, 01:11 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by woodwhity View Post
Oh well, you can fly a STF with 5 Scischips (real Sci ships, so no Vesta or Wells. Even without an Attrox) and do it. Its all a matter how you build works. Same for Cruisers. If you cant do more than lets say 5k DPS, you are flying your Cruiser wrong. Sci might do little less damage, but they have plenty of nice abilities to compensate.

Even though Escorts are relatively easy to fly, most people cant do that either. My Ody ownes most of the escorts out there with ease. While tanking TacCube+Gate and doing its 6k DPS. And that built is an conservative one with EptW 1...

the wells is probably the best sci ship ever...
as every sci ship it has subsystem targeting, sensor scan, one cmd science station and +15 aux, moreover you can configure the universal station to have a lt cmd tactical (so a TT and 2x THY) and one more lt sci station. Using only one hyperplasma torpedo and 2-3 projectile officers, because of its turn rate the wells is not only a very good sci vessell for buffing/debuffing but also an exceptional torpedo boat.
If you compare the wells with the fleet LRSV, the wells can han have not only the cmd sci station, but also a lt cmd and a lt sci station; both the ship have the same consoles layout, but the wells has a better turn rate and the temporal console is better than the ablative armor console.

Really the wells is the best science ship we have ever had.

Last edited by eurialo; 01-22-2013 at 02:34 AM.
Captain
Join Date: Nov 2012
Posts: 1,133
# 18
01-22-2013, 09:14 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by eurialo View Post
the wells is probably the best sci ship ever...
as every sci ship it has subsystem targeting, sensor scan, one cmd science station and +15 aux, moreover you can configure the universal station to have a lt cmd tactical (so a TT and 2x THY) and one more lt sci station. Using only one hyperplasma torpedo and 2-3 projectile officers, because of its turn rate the wells is not only a very good sci vessell for buffing/debuffing but also an exceptional torpedo boat.
If you compare the wells with the fleet LRSV, the wells can han have not only the cmd sci station, but also a lt cmd and a lt sci station; both the ship have the same consoles layout, but the wells has a better turn rate and the temporal console is better than the ablative armor console.

Really the wells is the best science ship we have ever had.

The wells is as much a sci ship like the breen ship is a cruiser. They are more like escorts with a sci/eng specialisation. So no real sci ship. And you dont need it for stfs, normal sci ships work just fine.

Quote:
Originally Posted by kiloace View Post
This is a lot of posts for 1 day. I am surprised.
Thats because this is a war of opinions. While Escorts are easier to fly, Cruisers and Sci ships need work and time to learn, how they work best. Most people dont event try and so they just hate escorts. But since I fly a Ody with my eng, I cant understand that opinion. Because you can do lots of dmg with a cruiser, and can take much much more dmg than an escort.

Escort Team on Hive? Wouldnt like that very well Cruiser Team on Hive? Hell yes. Sci Team? Against the cubes it might be quite ruff, but after, hell yeeeeeeeeeeees!
It's new? NERF IT TILL IT BLEEDS

PWE proudly presents STO:Season 9.x: The Big Nerf.
Dil-sinks, EC-Value-Nerf and player satisfaction Nerf (a.k.a. Crafting Revamp), join the most epic grind ever avaiable in STO...
Commander
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 374
# 19
01-22-2013, 05:42 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by woodwhity View Post
The wells is as much a sci ship like the breen ship is a cruiser. They are more like escorts with a sci/eng specialisation. So no real sci ship. And you dont need it for stfs, normal sci ships work just fine.



Thats because this is a war of opinions. While Escorts are easier to fly, Cruisers and Sci ships need work and time to learn, how they work best. Most people dont event try and so they just hate escorts. But since I fly a Ody with my eng, I cant understand that opinion. Because you can do lots of dmg with a cruiser, and can take much much more dmg than an escort.

Escort Team on Hive? Wouldnt like that very well Cruiser Team on Hive? Hell yes. Sci Team? Against the cubes it might be quite ruff, but after, hell yeeeeeeeeeeees!
I guess you may have a point, but raw damage just seems like the way to go.


And please don't talk to me about hive, too many bad experiences.
More anything?
"MORE EVERYTHING!"
-Jerry Seinfeld on Star Trek Online Content

Foundry Works: Uncharted
Empire Veteran
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 510
# 20
01-23-2013, 01:40 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by woodwhity View Post
The wells is as much a sci ship like the breen ship is a cruiser. They are more like escorts with a sci/eng specialisation. So no real sci ship. And you dont need it for stfs, normal sci ships work just fine.
the LRSVR is a shience vessell ok? so the fleet LRSVR...

LRSVR:

tier 5 science vessel (by description)
hull 29700
shield modifier 1.43
weapons: 3 + 3
crew 200
lt tactical station
lt engineering station
ensign science station
lt cmd science station
cmd science station
device slots: 3
turn rate: 12
consoles: 3 tactical, 3 engineering, 4 science

+15 power to aux
subsystem targeting
sensor analysis


wells:
tier 5 science vessel (by description)
hull: 30000
shield modifier 1.45
weapons: 3 + 3
crew: 250
ensign eng station
cmd science station (like the fleet LRSVR)
lt science station (better than the ensign station of the LRSVR)
universal lt station (that you can assign to a tactical officer, so the same of fleet LRSVR)
universal lt cmd station (you can assign it to a scince officer, so the same of fleet LRSVR)
device slots: 3
turn rate: 15
consoles: 3 tactical, 3 engineering, 4 science

+15 power to aux (like every science vessel)
subsystem targeting (like every science vessel)
sensor analysis (like every science vessel)

No matter what you think... the well has everithing a science vessel has, instead it hasn' t the minimum turn rate of a tier 5 escort, it hasn't the 4 tactical consoles of an escort, it hasn't a cmd tactical station, it can't equip DHC...

the well is simply a science vessel at all, better than the fleet LRSVR because of the better turn rate, the little more crew, the little more shields modifier, the little more hull... It's not me telling that... the stats are, its attributes are

If you compare the well to a cruiser or an escort you will not find anything of a cruiser or a escort in it.



Quote:
Thats because this is a war of opinions. While Escorts are easier to fly, Cruisers and Sci ships need work and time to learn, how they work best. Most people dont event try and so they just hate escorts. But since I fly a Ody with my eng, I cant understand that opinion. Because you can do lots of dmg with a cruiser, and can take much much more dmg than an escort.
I fly escorts with my tactical toons, and flyed for one year the LRSVR with my sci toon (now flying the wells), and flying cruisers with my engineer toon... So mine is not simply the opinion of a player just looking at the wiki, but the opinion of a player who's flying escorts, cruisers and science vessels every day. Nothing I do with a escort I can do with the wells, nothing I do with my cruiser I can do with the wells, and everything I did with my LRSVR I do better with the wells.

Quote:
Escort Team on Hive? Wouldnt like that very well Cruiser Team on Hive? Hell yes. Sci Team? Against the cubes it might be quite ruff, but after, hell yeeeeeeeeeeees!
I play HSE with my escorts and the wells... it's not a tragedy... you simply have to learn what your ship can do and cannot do and how to face your opponent... if you undestand it, HSE isn't so much more difficult than ISE
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is Off
HTML code is Off


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 03:01 AM.