Ensign
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 16
# 91
01-22-2013, 08:46 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by hravik View Post
Yep, most likely full of cadets on a training exercise, too.

I've always thought of that Connie as a ship that was kept functional for use as hands on starship operations training that got thrown at the cube in a last ditch act of desperation.

Sorry to completley ignore that huge argument you both just had (I'll go back and read over it), but you have just sort of come up with the single most legitimate excuse for putting a T5 Connie in the game.

Perhaps, even in the 25th Century, the Constitution makes an excellent ship for cadet training - i.e. role it inherited during the 2280s. Whilst other modern ships are off exploring the galaxy, Connies and reproduction Connies with better abilities provide a vital function of being active postings for Midshipmen and cadets.

That seems like the sort of ship that an Admiral - like Admiral Kirk in The Wrath of Khan - would command, imparting knowledge and wisdom to the fresh new officers. Fleet Captain Pike also left the Enterprise to command a Class-J Training Ship - so there's a history of flag officers becoming senior instructors.

Perhaps Cryptic could introduce the T5 Connie as a reward for completing a chain of assignments at the Academy, or scoring highly in Kobyashi Maru scenarios?

Quote:
Originally Posted by hravik View Post
Why would there be a museum ship of a class still in active service?
And again - it doesn't have to be in active service, it can be in serving AS a museum ship. I.e. filling a ceremonial role for diplomatic missions, or serving as an honourary flagship for senior Admirals. It really doesn't matter, as long as there's an ATTEMPT at a excuse.

STO is not a chronologically, canonically or continuital conscious game. It is a game that is doing a, frankly, bloody good job of mixing every series into one game - there are elements of every period, every aesthetic style, every series, every movie. And they blend very well together.

I don't think a T5 TOS-era ship would be so out of place in that universe.

Quote:
Originally Posted by hravik View Post
Beyond that, we're still at the basic issue of CBS said no. Cryptic is not the one to convince, I'm not the one to convince, other players aren't, it CBS. Until they say yes, we can talk about this until the end of time, and it wouldn't make even the slightest bit of difference.
Well how else are we supposed to try and make a difference, apart from by generating discussion to show that there's interest?

Last edited by commanderxon; 01-22-2013 at 09:13 AM.
Ensign
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 16
# 92
01-22-2013, 08:55 AM
[Delete post]

Last edited by commanderxon; 01-22-2013 at 10:53 AM.
Ensign
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 16
# 93
01-22-2013, 09:12 AM
[Delete post]

Last edited by commanderxon; 01-22-2013 at 10:52 AM.
Captain
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 938
# 94
01-22-2013, 09:27 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by hravik View Post
I'll point out that, once more you have wild, unsupported claims. Just give me one example, one single solitary shred of support that Constitutions were still in service. Anything? Something? No? Your arguments are built on a house of cards that can easily be dismissed point for point unless you have some evidence to back it up.

The only time we see one is as wreckage, in a place that can easily be explained as a desperate move.

Everything points to Constitutions just not being in service. We don't see them, don't hear about them, and have no evidence whatsoever that they were produced in the large numbers you suggest.
I did provide the only piece of solid evidence on either side of this argument. The Connie at wolf 359 was not just some random ship shoehorned into service, the admiral says exactly where the ships are coming from. If the fleet was really so desperate they would have brought the planetary defense forces we see too. Forty ships is a small fleet, hardly the numbers of an 'everything we can get situation'. Youre argument that only seeing it once is a fallacy of silence, rendered irrellevent by a genuine example to the contrary.

Assuming there were never Connie's produced after the twelve mentioned is also a logical fallacy of silence, there is no evidence in support of the claim and a wolf 359 corpse outright invalidates it. Museum ships are not fit for combat, nor cadets, they are never shown purposely introduced into combat.

Please provide evidence directly related to the duty status of the constitution class refit that isn't based on invisible inferences.

I also put forth the notion that the Saratoga and curry class vessels are still in active duty, will you challenge that as well?
The Somraw, K'tinga, D'Kyr, D7, Kumari, and T'Varo are all older than the Constitution Refit and yet they are tier 5. The rule needs to change.

Last edited by cidstorm; 01-22-2013 at 09:29 AM.
Captain
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 938
# 95
01-22-2013, 09:39 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by commanderxon View Post
[Deleeeeete]
Please don't, this conversation will just happen all over again.
The Somraw, K'tinga, D'Kyr, D7, Kumari, and T'Varo are all older than the Constitution Refit and yet they are tier 5. The rule needs to change.
Empire Veteran
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 185
# 96
01-22-2013, 09:47 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by cidstorm View Post
I did provide the only piece of solid evidence on either side of this argument. The Connie at wolf 359 was not just some random ship shoehorned into service, the admiral says exactly where the ships are coming from. If the fleet was really so desperate they would have brought the planetary defense forces we see too. Forty ships is a small fleet, hardly the numbers of an 'everything we can get situation'. Youre argument that only seeing it once is a fallacy of silence, rendered irrellevent by a genuine example to the contrary.

Assuming there were never Connie's produced after the twelve mentioned is also a logical fallacy of silence, there is no evidence in support of the claim and a wolf 359 corpse outright invalidates it. Museum ships are not fit for combat, nor cadets, they are never shown purposely introduced into combat.

Please provide evidence directly related to the duty status of the constitution class refit that isn't based on invisible inferences.

I also put forth the notion that the Saratoga and curry class vessels are still in active duty, will you challenge that as well?
refer to my last post about connie numbers
Starfleet Veteran
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 651
# 97
01-22-2013, 09:52 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by silverashes1 View Post
refer to my last post about connie numbers
The Franz Joseph Technical manual? Yeah, hate to break it to you, but its not canon.

Quote:
Originally Posted by cidstorm View Post
I did provide the only piece of solid evidence on either side of this argument. The Connie at wolf 359 was not just some random ship shoehorned into service, the admiral says exactly where the ships are coming from.
False. The exact line was 'Your engagements have given us valuable time. We've mobilized a fleet of 40 starships at Wolf 359, and that's just for starters. The Klingons are sending warships, hell, we've even thought of opening communications with the Romulans'

Sounds pretty desperate to me if they're willing to go to the Romulans for help.

Quote:
Originally Posted by cidstorm View Post
If the fleet was really so desperate they would have brought the planetary defense forces we see too. Forty ships is a small fleet, hardly the numbers of an 'everything we can get situation'.
This is typical Star Trek. There are always not enough ships, the Enterprise is always the only one in range. You say planetary defense forces? I ask what planetary defense forces? How else to you explain Generations and the Enterprise B? How could the Enterprise, a half finished ship in the home solar system be the only ship in range if there was a fleet stationed there 24/7?
http://sto-forum.perfectworld.com/image.php?type=sigpic&userid=91851990000&dateline=  1341951426

Last edited by hravik; 01-22-2013 at 10:14 AM.
Empire Veteran
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 185
# 98
01-22-2013, 10:27 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by hravik View Post
The Franz Joseph Technical manual? Yeah, hate to break it to you, but its not canon.



False. The exact line was 'Your engagements have given us valuable time. We've mobilized a fleet of 40 starships at Wolf 359, and that's just for starters. The Klingons are sending warships, hell, we've even thought of opening communications with the Romulans'

Sounds pretty desperate to me if they're willing to go to the Romulans for help.



This is typical Star Trek. There are always not enough ships, the Enterprise is always the only one in range. You say planetary defense forces? I ask what planetary defense forces? How else to you explain Generations and the Enterprise B? How could the Enterprise, a half finished ship in the home solar system be the only ship in range if there was a fleet stationed there 24/7?

all that means is that the needed time to get the ships together in ds9 there is fleets of 150+ ships.

and where does it say that the manual is non-cannon? i havent read that anywhere
Career Officer
Join Date: Sep 2012
Posts: 546
# 99
01-22-2013, 10:27 AM
As William Shatner and Leanord Nimoy stated in an interview with Whoopi Goldber, (also included Patrick Stewart and Johnathan Frakes) each time a TOS Star Trek movie was made they were told it would be the very last one and inevitably the entire set(s) were destroyed or sold off afterwards. I read that as a result the mentality was always that the next movie would be the last hoorah for the TOS crew, especially when TNG was on television and talks of future TNG movies started creeping up.

Thus, wanting to move away from the TOS crew and anything affiliated/associated with them meant changing the ship entirely. Hence why the Connie was destroyed in the first place (1701 - As a kid I actually did cry when that happened... ) and later the Connie A was retired because inevitably the simple fact of the matter was how could ANYONE bar James T Kirk captain the Enterprise A?!? People would have just associated it too much with Kirk.

Hence why the Excelsior in and of itself was introduced as a possible future series with Sulu, who, had it not been for his jaunt back in time to pick up some humpback whales, would have received the Excelsior as newly acting captain. (The irony that in doing so helped save planet earth altogether seemed loss on Starfleet) The same for the Enterprise B Excelsior. New captain, new ship design. They outdated the Connie because the cast and crew of it were aging and couldn't continue on forever (RIP Bones and Scotty).

One cannot argue the fictitious survivability of the Connie when you have Miranda class starships flying around either as NPC's or some T level ship. Makes no sense. I personally would be happy with an Fleet Exeter ship (which can be skinned to reflect the Connie A) that has the same stats but different Boff layout to the Fleet Excelsior.

On another note, a Fleet Excelsior with Cannon build rocks! God awful looking ship though imo...and hence why the Connie skin should be an option!

Fire Away!
"The world ain't all sunshine and rainbows. It's a very mean and nasty place and I don't care how tough you are it will beat you to your knees and keep you there permanently if you let it. You, me, or nobody is gonna hit as hard as life. But it ain't about how hard ya hit. It's about how hard you can get hit and keep moving forward." - Rocky Balboa (2006)

Last edited by bugspatteredjack; 01-22-2013 at 10:29 AM.
Ensign
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 16
# 100
01-22-2013, 10:52 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by cidstorm View Post
Please don't, this conversation will just happen all over again.

I just meant the post that said 'delete'. I posted the same thing three times by accident
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