Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 3,400
# 121
01-22-2013, 10:23 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by borticuscryptic View Post
Tricobalt Mines were changed (and are still being reviewed for further adjustments) primarily due to PvE concerns, not PvP. Mines are relatively easy to counter in a PvP environment under most circumstances, but the tactics used to do so are not generally available to our NPCs.

Thanks for the explanation Bort.


For the next time then, you might want to put upcoming changes to X ability/item in the General Feedback forum and not the PvP forum specifically (as was the case with these Tricobalt changes).

I have to respectfully tell you that it was a mistake to put it in the PvP forum in the first place (it's how "ear of the devs" rumors get started).



Reasons why:

1) It gives the impression you are favoring PvPers (which has the side effect that PvErs unfairly scapegoat them for changes that are out of the PvP community's direct control - my assumption is that you made these changes according to your data mining, this should also be clearly stated).

2) It makes the upcoming change less visible, and therefore a sudden shock to the general playerbase.

3) It gives certain, ego-inflated, individuals the excuse they look for to tell people to 'get out of our subforum'



None of those are desirable.


Your explanation is otherwise clear, and well reasoned and I think it would be good to outline such thinking when you first decide to break the news to the playerbase. I think this would be a great way to proceed in the future from my player's perspective, and have a positive impact on the playerbase in general.



Quote:
Originally Posted by borticuscryptic View Post
...the tactics used to do so are not generally available to our NPCs.
The ability to easily one-shot players with massive spike damage does belong to NPCs however.


This is why I am a proponent of 1 of 2 things happening:

1) NPC Hull/Shields/Powers/Damage Capabilities brought in-line to more closely resemble players, they would require more active powers and better scripting for using them (even something simple like Tac Team on a Mogai Escort is enough to give some players fits - much less an actual decent script for NPC action taking).


OR


2) Separate many powers effects/resists/damage numbers in PvE and PvP - many MMOs have (successfully) taken this approach.


Ex Issues:
How can Science powers be effective vs. a borderline immune to everything NPC with 1.5 million hull and not also be wildly overpowered vs. a single player with 45k hull and none of the same immunities?

Do you give Sci an effective power vs. NPCs but subsequently give them a super weapon vs. players or do you give them something that both players and NPCs shrug off without a second thought (which is where many Sci BOFF powers are right now)?


How can Subnucleonic beam be a useful power in PvE if 98% of the NPCs in this game do not use, and do not rely on, cycling 3 to 8 buffs for survival and offense effectiveness?


Last edited by ussultimatum; 01-22-2013 at 10:30 AM.
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 987
# 122
01-22-2013, 10:38 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by diogene0 View Post
STF targets are pathetic anyway, and will likely get killed long before your tric mines come back from the 30s (if you use two) or 1' cooldown.
I don't bomb mobs, I bomb the objective targets
Quote:
Or they will likely blow up before your mines are able to do anything.
I've got a Temporal Destroyer Set up so I can quickly refresh my long list of buffs I use. Also, for the CSE cubes, I strip off a shield facing, and literally put my ships butt on the cube (and normal to its surface) and let off the mine net. This makes it so its aggoed on me and not my mines and so it takes all 4 mines' damage at once; I've gotten good enough at it to kill the cube every time.

For ISE, KASE Transformers, I need to have damage on me first to get GDF to a higher percentage; The Transformers just have too much health.
Quote:
I mean, i stopped using tric mines in hive onslaught because it allowed me to almost solo the queen in her mighty ship in less than 5 minutes. And it's not funny, even if people will call you a great player.
I haven't been able to play Hive Onslaught enough; Is her PBAoE field of death on long enough of a Cooldown to do that?
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,474
# 123
01-22-2013, 10:55 AM
I haven't encountered any instance in PvE where I have found the mines to be that over-powered. Yes, they do hurt gates but that is a part of what makes them useful. if this is the reason, you have missed the point in how you approached the problem and by doing so, taken another useful weapon out of the players hamds fpr ,pre generic setups. Give the gates a 20% resistance instead of stripping the mines of their usefulness. Gravity Weell and mines makes for a good tactic in my opinion also. It's not for everyone but it's for people who fly Science ships. Perhaps a solution to this in PvE is figuring out a way to make the AI in this game more intelligent instead of always blaming the weapon. Can you tell me why the Borg Cutting Beam got such a significant boost? Try that thing ona gate and all of a sudden the mines aren't so bad. Such a lack of thought went into the changes and I'm glad I'm not the only one who thinks so.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sean2448 View Post
not true you due have an ear it is Maveric at Jupiter force and Gecko has ear of Prioty one fleet how else do you explain voldermort fix thehn that was reqeust of Stoked and jupiter force was it not
Thank you!

Last edited by jcsww; 01-22-2013 at 10:58 AM.
Empire Veteran
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 2,202
# 124
01-22-2013, 10:59 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by atatassault View Post
I don't bomb mobs, I bomb the objective targetsI've got a Temporal Destroyer Set up so I can quickly refresh my long list of buffs I use. Also, for the CSE cubes, I strip off a shield facing, and literally put my ships butt on the cube (and normal to its surface) and let off the mine net. This makes it so its aggoed on me and not my mines and so it takes all 4 mines' damage at once; I've gotten good enough at it to kill the cube every time.
I meant it's easier to kill a cube with a regular cannon/torp build instead of mines. With a good build killing an elite cube (not a tac one) takes 20 seconds or so. No need to use mines here.


Quote:
Originally Posted by atatassault View Post
For ISE, KASE Transformers, I need to have damage on me first to get GDF to a higher percentage; The Transformers just have too much health.I haven't been able to play Hive Onslaught enough; Is her PBAoE field of death on long enough of a Cooldown to do that?
It is. With some practice and a wise use of evasive maneuvers you can pop mines right on the queens vessel and these mines have a high chance to blow up on her face if you have some fighters to make her waste her fire at will ability. And anyway even if you have no fighters the AOE abilities are on a so long CD that it's just a minor annoyance.
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 987
# 125
01-22-2013, 11:02 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by jcsww View Post
I haven't encountered any instance in PvE where I have found the mines to be that over-powered. Yes, they do hurt gates but that is a part of what makes them useful. if this is the reason, you have missed the point in how you approached the problem and by doing so, taken another useful weapon out of the players hamds fpr ,pre generic setups. Give the gates a 20% resistance instead of stripping the mines of their usefulness. Gravity Weell and mines makes for a good tactic in my opinion also. It's not for everyone but it's for people who fly Science ships. Perhaps a solution to this in PvE is figuring out a way to make the AI in this game more intelligent instead of always blaming the weapon. Can you tell me why the Borg Cutting Beam got such a significant boost? Try that thing ona gate and all of a sudden the mines aren't so bad. Such a lack of thought went into the changes and I'm glad I'm not the only one who thinks so.
Damage after the healing units are dead is not what Cryptic dislikes. They dislike that you can one shot kill the lesser health objectives like Cure Cubes and Infected and KA transformers while their healing nodes are still alive.

Yes, it circumvents the progression Cryptic designed into these scenarios, but it requires investment (more Boffs with different skills, depending on your account status, this may require buying more boff slots; Also, requires high quality gear [such as full up on Purple Trico Consoles and certain Doffs]) and more than average knowledge of the game to do.

Many of the 5-man bosses in WoW's Cataclysm expansion could be soloed by a Death Knight; This wasn't because the DK was OP, but because very good players could use it to great effect against those bosses. Blizzard didn't stamp this out because they knew that it wasn't something everybody could do, and left it in.

I feel that if you're good enough to know how to Trico One shot STF targets, and invest in the all the items necessary to do it, you should be able to do it.
Empire Veteran
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 2,202
# 126
01-22-2013, 11:14 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ussultimatum View Post
Thanks for the explanation? Bort.


For the next time then, you might want to put upcoming changes to X ability/item in the General Feedback forum and not the PvP forum specifically (as was the case with these Tricobalt changes).

I have to respectfully tell you that it was a mistake to put it in the PvP forum in the first place (it's how "ear of the devs" rumors get started).
I concur. If you want PvE feedback, make sure to ask for PvE feedback instead of a PvP one. It's not easy to know what you have in mind and it's not realistic to expect us to provide feedback without any request on every single aspect of the game. Especially if you want feedback from experienced players, since they are a minority.
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,474
# 127
01-22-2013, 11:31 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by atatassault View Post
Damage after the healing units are dead is not what Cryptic dislikes. They dislike that you can one shot kill the lesser health objectives like Cure Cubes and Infected and KA transformers while their healing nodes are still alive.

Yes, it circumvents the progression Cryptic designed into these scenarios, but it requires investment (more Boffs with different skills, depending on your account status, this may require buying more boff slots; Also, requires high quality gear [such as full up on Purple Trico Consoles and certain Doffs]) and more than average knowledge of the game to do.

Many of the 5-man bosses in WoW's Cataclysm expansion could be soloed by a Death Knight; This wasn't because the DK was OP, but because very good players could use it to great effect against those bosses. Blizzard didn't stamp this out because they knew that it wasn't something everybody could do, and left it in.

I feel that if you're good enough to know how to Trico One shot STF targets, and invest in the all the items necessary to do it, you should be able to do it.
Maybe this just reflects me but I don't have any builds that one-shot things and so on. For me, that takes the fun out of things. I have some builds that vary acrosss different toons that I would call effective but don't take the fun out of elite. if you take the challenge away from the game, it gets boring really fast! The same goes for PvP and why I pretty much exclusively PvP with casual players. It's about having fun for me, not who wins or loses. It does however get old having to start over on builds with every season or incoming mass-nerfing due to a lack of thinking.


Quote:
Originally Posted by diogene0 View Post
I concur. If you want PvE feedback, make sure to ask for PvE feedback instead of a PvP one. It's not easy to know what you have in mind and it's not realistic to expect us to provide feedback without any request on every single aspect of the game. Especially if you want feedback from experienced players, since they are a minority.
See this, Bort? You went to the wrong group for imput. When you say you want player feedback, don't go running to your fleet and PvP for it. Ask the players that play what you are thinking of changing instead. If you really think balance in this game is important. You have to stop cherry picking your sources for feedback!
Starfleet Veteran
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 716
# 128
01-22-2013, 12:00 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by diogene0 View Post
I concur. If you want PvE feedback, make sure to ask for PvE feedback instead of a PvP one. It's not easy to know what you have in mind and it's not realistic to expect us to provide feedback without any request on every single aspect of the game. Especially if you want feedback from experienced players, since they are a minority.
As soon as they don't put things in PvP forums, then the PvP'ers will claim that it's the PvE'ers that "have the devs ear", and that they (the PvP'ers) are being ignored (again/still/whatever).

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Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 3,400
# 129
01-22-2013, 12:04 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by diogene0 View Post
With a good build killing an elite cube (not a tac one) takes 20 seconds or so. No need to use mines here.

Unless the Romulan/Omega torps are doing stupendous amounts of damage, I'm going to say that your estimate of 20s is inaccurate.


Let's ignore shielding for a moment, and simply assume an Elite Tac cube has approximately 1.5 million hull points.

It would take 75,000 damage per second for a full 20s to deal 1.5 million hull damage in 20s.


Now I'm not going to say that it's outright impossible, but without Tricobalt mines I'm going to state that's extremely unlikely to do this - ever - and there is an infinitesimally small chance any "cannons and torps" build able to do this on a regular basis.


Here's a snapshot of my guramba doing 1 million points of damage dealt in 17.9 seconds.

This was using FOMM, APB 1, DPB 3, HYT 2, CRF 2, APA, GDF, Tac Fleet with MK XII Trico Torp CrtHx3, MK XII Trico Mines CrtHx3, Guramba Javelin.


Basically, all the big stuff crit, the Javelin Crit, the mines crit and the HYT Trico torp crit.

I suppose its possible to squeeze a bit more out with a BO & DBB and a higher version of HYT - but I still don't see anyone doing this on a regular basis with "just cannons and torps".


Last edited by ussultimatum; 01-22-2013 at 12:25 PM.
Rihannsu
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 769
# 130
01-22-2013, 12:37 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by borticuscryptic View Post
First, I'd like to state for the record that no Fleet in STO has the 'ear' of the Systems Team, which is in charge of power tuning and balance for both PvE and PvP. That said, I believe it's fairly common sense why the PvP community as a whole would be an invaluable asset to the continued balance of any MMO, considering that NPCs as a whole are extremely unlikely to submit feedback about imbalances that may evolve during gameplay.

Tricobalt Mines were changed (and are still being reviewed for further adjustments) primarily due to PvE concerns, not PvP. Mines are relatively easy to counter in a PvP environment under most circumstances, but the tactics used to do so are not generally available to our NPCs.
Okay, if you want to say this, fine. I could dig up most of the posts that suggest otherwise, but whatever.

Quote:
Originally Posted by borticuscryptic View Post
Specifically, we have come to realize that some of the most difficult content in STO was being destroyed in a matter of seconds using nothing other than Tricobalt Mines. No grand tactics, no difficult maneuvering or careful teamwork. Just poop out a few Dispersal Patterns and wait for the victory march. Not only is this "tactic" pretty cheap, it also circumvents the concept of overcoming the challenges that make these encounters more engaging and psychologically satisfying to overcome. In essence, players using Tricobalt Mines in this manner are diminishing their own experiencing, and that of their teammates.

This concern hasn't been fully addressed, and players are likely to see further changes to Tricobalt Mines in the future. But during our initial pass, we determined that a number of small tweaks could immediately be made that might help matters, while we attempt to address the larger issue.
First, I would like to introduce you to a thing known as an escort. If you put 3 to 4 duel heavy cannons up front and three turrets in back, maybe a torp to taste, with the right skills, you can do pretty much the exact same amount of damage in pretty much the same amout of time as a ship with a few tri mines in the back. Particularly on such targets as stationary or near stationary as the borg. I have seen, personally, an armitage with dual cannons, fighters, and at least part of the omega set handle BOTH SIDES of KASE probes, and he would have gotten the optional for us if he didn't have an unlucky disconnect. Even so, he only let one slip through. Even when I flew an average escort, I could blow pretty much anything a tricobalt spread could, probably even better than a mine spread could sometimes since I can target cannons. And I suck at this game compared to a lot of others. So, if you are saying that Tricobalt mines make the end game content too easy, maybe you should nerf escorts as well, since they are a cheap tactic that requires no teamwork etc etc etc.

Second, please do not assume that you know what I or anyone else might find psychologically satisfying. I don't believe you are qualified, unless you have a PhD in mental health or some such? Also, I don't believe you are evaulating the player base accurately. Even though I am as unlearned as I assume you are in this field, I think that the fact that the most popular missions for earning dilithium in this game are short mindless foundry missions with absolutely no chalenge at all seems to indicate that the average player likes easy stuff, not harder.

I guess I'm repeating things said before, but I just saw this thread post, so forgiv eme for jumping on late.
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