Captain
Join Date: Nov 2012
Posts: 1,409
# 41
01-22-2013, 02:48 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by commandodan2001 View Post
Mk XII didn't exist. Neither did carriers. Neither did Vet BOFFs....

I said keep the rationale for inclusion and exclusion consistent. It's clearly NOT Classic PVP yet as long as Vet Boffs and Carriers and Mk XII are in the spec.

Duh.
the only carrier that is listed is the first klingon carrrier which was there at the launch of the game.
Quote:
Originally Posted by mancom View Post
Frankly, I think the only sound advice that one can give new players at this time is to stay away from PVP in STO.
Science pvp at its best-http://www.youtube.com/user/matteo716
Do you even Science Bro?
Captain
Join Date: Oct 2012
Posts: 663
# 42
01-22-2013, 02:55 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by maicake716 View Post
the only carrier that is listed is the first klingon carrrier which was there at the launch of the game.
And if commandodan did play the game since beta he would have known that, but he doesnt? Somethings going on here, or is it something i smell?
Co-founder of The Spanish Inquisition TSI - Cause no one expects it!

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Starfleet Veteran
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 23
# 43
01-22-2013, 03:10 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by maicake716 View Post
the only carrier that is listed is the first klingon carrrier which was there at the launch of the game.
Yes, maybe I should be more precise... There were no Fed carriers. Advantage Klink. Along with cloaking, given to Klink but not Fed until VA ships came out.

Then forever did Klink rule PvP. The only tactic was Fed balling. I remember those days and PvP was awful. The whole of STO didn't PVP for crap anyway except a few dozen REALLY effective players. Only after F2P did PvP blow up like this and there are legions of PvPers that don't recall early PvP. Plus, the skill tree was MASSIVELY different.

There are reasons PvP has changed so much from 'Classic'... It sucked WAY more then than it does now.

It's a spec, along with a voluntary tag to confer compliance. It can be written and rewritten by Hilbert at will from Player input; and it can be done a LOT faster than trusting the Devs to fix the mechanics in the game. We can just let it ride now and do trials because I'm sure none of us really knows what a true 'white spec' ship behaves like vs. a 'classic' build- especially since it's now impossible to duplicate.

It lays out an opportunity for the players in the game to see and adhere to the Classic PVP spec, trust one another to do so, and play their hearts out. After a bunch of weeks playing around in a Classic spec, voluntarily, Hilbert can take a look and gauge the community on what we think is really worth having or not having regarding these couple of little items.

It's a 95% solution. We can test things out, weigh in, and change them in that spec. That can bring it to 100%.

We will find either that classic specced ship PvP will be fun and rewarding in whatever flavor settles, or it will be horribly unbalanced toward certain vessels and ship builds- yeah you can bring what you want but competition will force the community to gravitate to certain setups as not all are created equal.

Last edited by bluegeek; 01-28-2013 at 10:45 AM.
Captain
Join Date: Nov 2012
Posts: 1,409
# 44
01-22-2013, 03:20 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by commandodan2001 View Post
Yes, maybe I should be more precise... There were no Fed carriers. Advantage Klink. Along with cloaking, given to Klink but not Fed until VA ships came out.

Then forever did Klink rule PvP. The only tactic was Fed balling. I remember those days and PvP was awful. The whole of STO didn't PVP for crap anyway except a few dozen REALLY effective players. Only after F2P did PvP blow up like this and there are legions of PvPers that don't recall early PvP. Plus, the skill tree was MASSIVELY different.

There are reasons PvP has changed so much from 'Classic'... It sucked WAY more then than it does now.

It's a spec, along with a voluntary tag to confer compliance. It can be written and rewritten by Hilbert at will from Player input; and it can be done a LOT faster than trusting the Devs to fix the mechanics in the game. We can just let it ride now and do trials because I'm sure none of us really knows what a true 'white spec' ship behaves like vs. a 'classic' build- especially since it's now impossible to duplicate.

It lays out an opportunity for the players in the game to see and adhere to the Classic PVP spec, trust one another to do so, and play their hearts out. After a bunch of weeks playing around in a Classic spec, voluntarily, Hilbert can take a look and gauge the community on what we think is really worth having or not having regarding these couple of little items.

It's a 95% solution. We can test things out, weigh in, and change them in that spec. That can bring it to 100%.

We will find either that classic specced ship PvP will be fun and rewarding in whatever flavor settles, or it will be horribly unbalanced toward certain vessels and ship builds- yeah you can bring what you want but competition will force the community to gravitate to certain setups as not all are created equal.

youre making no sense.... i know all that already. the only carrier allowed in the classic i think is the klingon one....
Quote:
Originally Posted by mancom View Post
Frankly, I think the only sound advice that one can give new players at this time is to stay away from PVP in STO.
Science pvp at its best-http://www.youtube.com/user/matteo716
Do you even Science Bro?

Last edited by bluegeek; 01-28-2013 at 10:46 AM.
Empire Veteran
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 470
# 45
01-22-2013, 03:33 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by commandodan2001 View Post
Yes, maybe I should be more precise... There were no Fed carriers. Advantage Klink. Along with cloaking, given to Klink but not Fed until VA ships came out.

Then forever did Klink rule PvP. The only tactic was Fed balling. I remember those days and PvP was awful. The whole of STO didn't PVP for crap anyway except a few dozen REALLY effective players. Only after F2P did PvP blow up like this and there are legions of PvPers that don't recall early PvP. Plus, the skill tree was MASSIVELY different.

There are reasons PvP has changed so much from 'Classic'... It sucked WAY more then than it does now.

I'm not sure what your experience was in 2010, but mine was quite positive playing my fed tact. Moving on to KDF, it was fun and challenging. The BoP was certainly a unique ship that was on par with the fed escorts of the time. It was even fun doing 1v1s. Not so much anymore of course. You can argue the cloak gave a distinct advantage but in many 1v1s I did it wasn't allowed. Most were either even or I would get outclassed by a better 1v1 player. Regardless they were certainly more fun than now, IMO.

Moving on to the quality of players. Cmdr/Captain/RA-BG/VA-LG popped fairly frequently I thought. A good majority in the timezone I played (late night US) provided a good set of players/teams and frequent fun pops. Sure it wasn't always fun forming a team up every match, so kind of a +1 to the f2p changes (although be nice if previous teams were auto-reformed). Did get some pretty hax teams going from that though.

CMDR was certainly the best, and then you could leave your toon @ cmdr and just pew pew. It was AWESOME. The quality of players, lack of consoles, provided a fun experience that didn't really favor one group or another. Feds had their sci ships and tricks to work with cloaks, KDF had the surprise advantage but had to refrain from being detected. It was fun!

RMC is still an available item. getting more rare and more expensive though.
-X-/Pandas - Pheo
Survivor of Romulus
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 234
# 46
01-22-2013, 03:33 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by maicake716 View Post
the only carrier that is listed is the first klingon carrrier which was there at the launch of the game.
We went over that in the meeting and everyone agreed, I did step away for a few mins and when I came back we had Very Rare MkXII weapons and consoles after everyone agreed to Very Rare MkXI...I advocated for RMC on the basis that the Neodymium Deflector Dish, Automated Defense Turret and so on where allowed. they don't pose a huge advantage but they are not readily avalible...and should be excluded from use.

I thought the principle of the PVP Classic, was to set a lvl playing field where skill, team work, and sportsmanship would be your greatest advantage.


Allowing anyone to join with out a huge investment, If the Elitests or Others out there can't afford or don't have said equipment such as ra lvl ships or IMHO a toon with out Romulan passives xp weekend is comming up I suggest u get to work.

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Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 23
# 47 Yes, I see that.
01-22-2013, 03:35 PM
Yeah I misspoke about the carrier... OCD much?

My point is, PvP "way back when' sucked really horribly. Both 1v1 and teams.

The Classic Spec will fail if it sucks. Some things will need excluded beyond what is even here. For one, to enhance fairness and encourage quality matches, not 75-minute healfests...

Let it not suck. Do some trials, see what the community likes and dislikes, now that the decisions are narrowed down for us already by the proposed spec.

We may find that the inclusions/exclusions list won't really matter with regard to the carrier or the pre-order items.

Vet Boffs didn't exist, neither did MK XII, so leave them out.

Pre-order items aren't attainable by everyone, so leave them out, whether they suck or not isn't the issue. Strict adherence to a universally obtainable spec encourages more people to buy into it. And maybe it'll put some demand back on our MK X purple gear...
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,448
# 48
01-22-2013, 03:43 PM
Just checked and Pengs aren't explicitly excluded. They weren't around then.

Also, Doff mission bonuses aren't explicitly excluded.
Empire Veteran
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 470
# 49
01-22-2013, 03:48 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by livinrtb View Post
We went over that in the meeting and everyone agreed, I did step away for a few mins and when I came back we had Very Rare MkXII weapons and consoles after everyone agreed to Very Rare MkXI...I advocated for RMC on the basis that the Neodymium Deflector Dish, Automated Defense Turret and so on where allowed. they don't pose a huge advantage but they are not readily avalible...and should be excluded from use.

I thought the principle of the PVP Classic, was to set a lvl playing field where skill, team work, and sportsmanship would be your greatest advantage.


Allowing anyone to join with out a huge investment, If the Elitests or Others out there can't afford or don't have said equipment such as ra lvl ships or IMHO a toon with out Romulan passives xp weekend is comming up I suggest u get to work.

For simplicity it was agreed MK XII would be okay.

I'm certainly a fan of MK XI R/VR (consoles/weapons)/No Rep Passives but for simplicity and to make the event more open, both were allowed.

That said, maybe those with alts would consider making teams for random privates? For Fun! No passives, doffs, MK XII anything, ect. Just throwing it out there. Saturday is the next bootcamp so maybe some will bite on the idea and we can discuss it more then.
-X-/Pandas - Pheo
Survivor of Romulus
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 234
# 50
01-22-2013, 03:49 PM
In light of the release today what will be the stand on the new Mirror Universe Patrol Escort, Vo'quv Carrier, and Advanced Escort?

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