Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,502
# 21
01-26-2013, 07:26 AM
All i can say to this discussion is that i just got my Jem'Hadar Dreadnought Carrier and no matter what weapons i equip in 1on1 pvp tests any Escort i played with has out-tanked and out-gunned me, simply by parking behind me and staying out of my front weapons firing arc, and no amount of skills or Carrier pets helps you moving that Escort into your front arc long enough to actually kill it.

The Dreadnought needs a hell of a lot more Hull Hitpoints and at least 4 rear weapon slots to compensate for the low turnrate.

The Ship is fine for STFs and PvE but in my Bug Ship i am much more efficient even there.

Something should be done, i'm not sure what but this game needs a serious balance pass.
Captain
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 13,174
# 22
01-26-2013, 07:43 AM
Unfortunately, like most threads that attempt to discuss the topic of weapons - it inevitably becomes about ships or careers or ships and careers, etc, etc, etc.

I'll say what I try to say in most of them if I post in them.

Put the same weapons on the same ship.

Run the Escort with the DHCs/Turrets.
Run the Escort with the DCs/Turrets.
Run the Escort with the SCs/Turrets.
Run the Escort with the DBBs/Turrets.
Run the Escort with the Beam Arrays.
Run the Escort with just Turrets.
Run the Escort with some Torps/Mines.

Do it all on the same captain.

Look at your damage and survivability. Does your increase in survivability balance out well with your reduction in damage? Does your increase in damage balance out well with your reduction in survivability?

ie: "increased" survivability & "decreased" damage of the Beam Array Escort vs. "increased" damage & "decreased" survivability of the DHCs/Turrets Escort.

It's not about Escort vs. Cruiser. It's not about Tac vs. Eng. It's about balancing the weapons against each other...no?

You take those "balanced" Beam Arrays off the Escort and put them on a Cruiser - guess what? The Escort's still going to do more damage with them. Have the Escort be a Tac and the Cruiser an Eng... and yep, that Tac Escort's still going to do even more damage with them than the Eng Cruiser. "Balanced" weapons will not change that - but it would at least balance the weapons...
Vice Admiral Geist, Klingon Science Officer
V.S.S. Oracle, D'Kyr-class Science Vessel
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 497
# 23
01-26-2013, 07:46 AM
They could take a trick from the dual cannons book so to speak. Excepting the beam turret, make the heavy beam weapon something that can't be mounted on an escort, but can be mounted on a science vessel and cruiser, and probably the galaxy-x.

..and like children playing after sunset, we were surrounded by darkness." -Ruri Hoshino
Community Moderator
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,659
# 24
01-26-2013, 07:48 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by eulifdavis View Post
No, you have no idea what a tank is. Tanks are meant to absorb damage. Cruisers are best designed to fill this role by having high hull points and the ability to slot an absurd number of heals.
No, that is not correct. That is the EVE Online definition of "Tank" as an aggregate of various ship stats meaning "how much damage can I ignore", it's not the classic MMO definition of "Tank" as a role meaning "mitigates damage for the rest of the party by redirecting it away from them".

Whatever causes the most damage to be redirected away from others is the best tanking, and in this game it just so happens currently (and for a while now) that avoidance tanking can redirect at least as much as mitigation tanking, AND is more survivable since any ship type can absorb infinite misses.

Every point of damage that hits your Cruiser reduces either shields or hull; every point that misses your Escort entirely is just gone. If he has double your miss chance and at least half your hull, he wins outright; even more so if he can pull more threat than you because he has all your threat tools AND puts out more damage.
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Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 6,416
# 25
01-26-2013, 08:49 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by syberghost View Post
No, that is not correct. That is the EVE Online definition of "Tank" as an aggregate of various ship stats meaning "how much damage can I ignore", it's not the classic MMO definition of "Tank" as a role meaning "mitigates damage for the rest of the party by redirecting it away from them".

Whatever causes the most damage to be redirected away from others is the best tanking, and in this game it just so happens currently (and for a while now) that avoidance tanking can redirect at least as much as mitigation tanking, AND is more survivable since any ship type can absorb infinite misses.

Every point of damage that hits your Cruiser reduces either shields or hull; every point that misses your Escort entirely is just gone. If he has double your miss chance and at least half your hull, he wins outright; even more so if he can pull more threat than you because he has all your threat tools AND puts out more damage.
That pretty much died with Season 5, when they completely changed abilities. Right now, DPS is more important, and people know it. That's why the majority of people are flying Tac-Heavy ships or ships with high DPS capability.

And in PvE, there is no need for a "tank". A smart escort team can easily defeat an opponent in a few seconds, or in longer fights like with Tac Cube in gaining high amounts of aggro (without even the use of threat skills), and simply get out of range, while the others attack with immunity.

Which nicely goes back to the OP's point, that DPS is king. Nobody want's Cruisers or Science ships (except the Vesta), STO is all about the DPS.
Starfleet Veteran
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 887
# 26
01-26-2013, 09:03 AM
Escorts can use beam abilities, cannon abilities, mine abilities, and torp abilities - all at the same time.

Gravity Well, Tykens Rift, Tachyon Beam, and Energy Siphon all share the same cooldown.

Why?
Captain
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 2,192
# 27
01-26-2013, 12:37 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by kamiyama317 View Post
Escorts can use beam abilities, cannon abilities, mine abilities, and torp abilities - all at the same time.

Gravity Well, Tykens Rift, Tachyon Beam, and Energy Siphon all share the same cooldown.

Why?
Because back then, all these science abilities were "deflector abilities". Hence shared cooldown. It is a relic of the past.
Empire Veteran
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 6,764
# 28
01-26-2013, 03:24 PM
So we will all fly Cruisers under these ideas firing Super Beam arrays broadsides as there will be no need for Escorts in STO.

Yet the ******** will remain because nothing would have been fixed, just more unbalance for a poorly balanced game.

We need a fix, not a further nuetering of another aspect of the game.
Captain
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 1,449
# 29
01-26-2013, 03:32 PM
I do not favour this as escort are the drps machines in the game as we can't tank and defuff or buff other.It all comes down your skills where you put your points into if you have all your points in engineering you will not do any signifacnt damage.This does not mean as an engineer you put all your points in attack.

Quote:
Originally Posted by kamiyama317 View Post
Escorts can use beam abilities, cannon abilities, mine abilities, and torp abilities - all at the same time.

Gravity Well, Tykens Rift, Tachyon Beam, and Energy Siphon all share the same cooldown.

Why?
Yes.But we don't use these only survival.
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Last edited by age03; 01-26-2013 at 03:34 PM.
Empire Veteran
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 6,764
# 30
01-26-2013, 04:06 PM
And I feel that fix involves fixing Beam Arrays so they do not bottom out in power levels when fired repeatedly and adding beam based CRF style BOffpowers from ensign to Ltc for Tac BOffs.
Without the sudden power loss effecting BAs and a CRF style power up to Tier 3, add in all the other ingame choices to help cruisers boost power, maintain power or other wise nullify the drain you end up with a cruiser firing beams faster they they do now buffed by a BOff ability that emulates how DHCs work yet do the damage by a thousand cuts instead of a few heavy sledgehammer blows.
Even Science and especially Engineers will find it a welcome change to how poorly things are now given thier captain abilities.
Hell, it would even work on all existing cruisers given that some do have LTC BOff slots.

True, STO would still have many issues left to overcome but Cruiser captains would enjoy better damage based gameplay

The <self edited> bleeding style crying may still remain.
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