Empire Veteran
Join Date: Sep 2012
Posts: 55
# 21
01-27-2013, 01:30 AM
I would be happy if the Defiant could cloak without having a cloaking device equiped. Cloak is a built-in power for all kdf ships. Not quite sure why the 2 fed ships aren't like that. It is after all only two ships.. one of which I rarely see anyone flying.
Captain
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 2,527
# 22
01-27-2013, 02:57 AM
Tossing in a couple slips of Latinum on this-the Defiant doesn't NEED a Cloak to be effective at all-unlike the entirety of the Bird of Prey class, it's perfectly effective without EVER going to cloak, and the Fleet variant's even MORE effective.

further, the Vet ship's basically as described by dontdrunkI'mshoot: utterly dependent on the Cloak in all flight regimes, and utterly ineffective without it-unlike BOTH the Fedships with Cloaks, which each can, in their turn, function,tank, and damage quite fine without ever USING the slotted cloak (or, for that matter, ever MOUNTING IT).

Per the Canon of the series, only the "Original" Defiant-the one lost in combat action-had a cloaking device-and it was an add-on item. The rest of the CLASS was fielded during the war without it-arguably, fielded more effectively (just as your Fleet Defiant is more effective with something useful in the console slots INSTEAD of the cloak!)

it is this simple set of facts: that the two Fed ships with cloaking consoles available are as effective (if not MORE) without using said cloak, as they would theoretically be making use of it-thus, giving them battlecloak is more than "Kind of" OP, it's outright Munchkin-marysue-fanwank OP.
"when you're out of Birds of Prey, you're out of ships."
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 238
# 23
01-27-2013, 04:30 AM
It's funny how I didn't even say I want to give it battle cloak. Just make the mechanic less silly.
Yet the thread ends up as "Battlecloak would be OP!" anyway.
This isn't a Fed vs. KDF thing either. If normal cloak were changed it would be for both factions naturally.
I just don't like how it's bound to the stupid Red Alert/pop up mechanic and not about the actual viability of cloaking in battle.

Vornek@oberlerchner123 - Join Date: July 2008
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,307
# 24
01-27-2013, 05:41 AM
Probably nothing. Can BOP's have universal console slots?

Or really how about making normal cloak NOT break on red alert. Normal cloak breaking on red alert is a tad silly. to be nice about it.
If I don't respond to posts on this forum don't be offended. I don't sub or follow any of them.
Captain
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 2,527
# 25
01-27-2013, 10:50 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by obertheromulan View Post
It's funny how I didn't even say I want to give it battle cloak. Just make the mechanic less silly.
Yet the thread ends up as "Battlecloak would be OP!" anyway.
This isn't a Fed vs. KDF thing either. If normal cloak were changed it would be for both factions naturally.
I just don't like how it's bound to the stupid Red Alert/pop up mechanic and not about the actual viability of cloaking in battle.
The 'pop up' issue plagues ships with BC as well as standard cloak, aka Ensign Flatulent will get you, AND the Klink Captain, killed pretty equally, and it's a "Feature" that Cryptic's unwilling to address in the PvE portion of the game. (one could even say some of those dialogues are placed to intentionally force a de-cloak and subsequent cooldown, thus forcing a scripted combat.)

I run mostly BoPs-I'll run them in situations better players (Thissler for instance) would stop at the shipyard and choose a different ride for, but I DO have a few other rides-and none of them (except the ONE Vet Destroyer I claimed) has Battlecloak.

For the most part, the Vor'cha doesn't need a BC, not even the Mirror version, same for the one Raptor I own that I'm not inclined to toss out (a Qin). Sure, there are times when it seems like it would be nice to HAVE it-but I've been killed-while-cloaking often enough in PvP (and even some PvE content) to know that BC won't always save you-esp. if you'e got a Bugship or Fleet Defiant coming after you with fullest intent in the hands of a moderately competent (never mind good) Captain.

It won't save you when you're being focus-fired by the Fedball and the rest of your PUG is still in the res cycle, it won't help you evade those torpedoes-they'll still catch up to you if you're not able to engage Full Impulse, and being cloaked, you only have your resistances and Brace for Impact, and it won't even activate if that Vesta's Danube's got you tractor-locked from three directions.

But BC DOES help you in other situations-like when you've failed to kill him with your Alpha and your crossing path has you out of his torpedo arc for a few seconds when you hit Evasive and cloak, or when your teammates can actually get the other team's attention OFF you for a few seconds, and of course, it helps if you're laying ambush-but in ambush, standard cloak works just as well.

But the uses for it are limited, the sacrifices we have to deal with to HAVE it are significant-it comes standard on a ship classification that is armored with toilet paper and shielded by a flickering, dim, sixty-watt lightbulb. We sacrifice weapons mounts for the privelage on BoPs and turn rate on the Peggie for it, along with console slots, bridge seating areas, etc.

sit down and do a side-by-side comparison if you will: Hegh'ta (biggest and best of the non-pay BoPs) vs. Defiant-and remember to take into account that the (Free) Defiant's a lower-tier ship!

Then, compare the Fl. Hoh'sus to the Fleet Advanced Escort.

Then, compare the Fleet Norgh to the Fleet Tactical (i.e. comparing tier-to-tier).

D'ya notice anything? a trend maybe?

Compare Chimera to Peggie while you're at it-side-by-side, and ask yourself if you, as a Fed, would fly that ship(The Peggie) anywhere but PvE.

The Sacrifice for Battlecloak is HUGE, but the benefits of it are...limited. If BoPs had fixed/assigned seating instead of Universal slots, I wouldn't fly 'em, even with BC or EBC, because the sacrifice demanded to mount Battlecloak is just-that-much.
"when you're out of Birds of Prey, you're out of ships."
Empire Veteran
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 193
# 26
01-27-2013, 11:05 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by patrickngo View Post
Tossing in a couple slips of Latinum on this-the Defiant doesn't NEED a Cloak to be effective at all-unlike the entirety of the Bird of Prey class, it's perfectly effective without EVER going to cloak, and the Fleet variant's even MORE effective.

further, the Vet ship's basically as described by dontdrunkI'mshoot: utterly dependent on the Cloak in all flight regimes, and utterly ineffective without it-unlike BOTH the Fedships with Cloaks, which each can, in their turn, function,tank, and damage quite fine without ever USING the slotted cloak (or, for that matter, ever MOUNTING IT).

Per the Canon of the series, only the "Original" Defiant-the one lost in combat action-had a cloaking device-and it was an add-on item. The rest of the CLASS was fielded during the war without it-arguably, fielded more effectively (just as your Fleet Defiant is more effective with something useful in the console slots INSTEAD of the cloak!)

it is this simple set of facts: that the two Fed ships with cloaking consoles available are as effective (if not MORE) without using said cloak, as they would theoretically be making use of it-thus, giving them battlecloak is more than "Kind of" OP, it's outright Munchkin-marysue-fanwank OP.
took the words out of my targ's mouth ty
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