Captain
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 12,080
# 51
01-27-2013, 05:25 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by eulifdavis View Post
Ship types and weapon types are inseparably linked. You cannot discuss one without addressing the other. This is part of the game's core design, and hearkens all the way back to alpha testing. Any attempt to divorce the two halves of this ying-yang would result in massive imbalances.
A buffed beam on an Escort would still be better than a buffed beam on a Cruiser...in the sense that any weapon is going to be better on an Escort than on a Cruiser. You've got the Tac BOFF stations. You've got the Tac console slots. You've even got the +Weapon Power thrown into that mix.

If it's a case of saying that Beams are mainly balanced for Sci and Cruisers, then much like only certain ships can run Dual Cannons - only certain ships should be able to run Beams, eh? But it's not like that.

The adjustments in balance take place on the ships - BOFF layout, Tac consoles, turn rate, shield modifier, defense bonus, hull, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc.

Thus, the suggestion to look at the weapons on a single ship type as a starting point.

Take an Escort. Put DHCs/Turrets on it. Parse it. Put Beam Arrays on it. Parse it. Try it in different levels of difficulty where survival may be a factor. Compare them. Do they balance? Most people will just laugh at the idea...Beams on an Escort...lolrly? And tada, there's the issue. And still, better Beams on an Escort would still be better than better Beams on a Cruiser.

Part of the backlash is likely from it not necessarily being a case of it being better Beams. It may be a case of toning down Cannons. Oh noes, can't have anything like that! Even if any weapon still worked better on an Escort than on a Cruiser (for so many reasons) - people aren't going to see that - they're not interested in actually balancing anything. You see it all the time with the broken crap where they cry about a nerf. They're not nerfs - they're fixes. At least in this case, you could pat them on the back and say there there...because it might actually be a nerf.

Don't forget, the devs have acknowledged there are issues with abilities where they're not taking into account weapon modifiers and procs.

Quote:
Originally Posted by borticuscryptic View Post
Progress!

With the assistance of one of our Programmers, we think we've uncovered the issue at hand.

Suffice it to say, Enhancements from weapons (like [Acc] mods, but also includes [Dmg], [CrtD], etc, as well as Procs) aren't being properly inherited by all powers in all circumstances. I'm hesitant to post more details than that until we have a working fix, which is unlikely to happen internally until next week at the earliest.

So, stay tuned! I'll let you all know what's going on, once we have made more progress internally.
Quote:
Originally Posted by flyingtarg View Post
In regards to the test case that borticus reported at the start of this thread, we managed to find a flaw in how it was setup, and once we corrected that we saw that weapon Enhancements were not interacting with Fire At Will, as many of you have been reporting to us. We're working on getting this fixed.
So we'll have to see in the coming weeks what comes of this...
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Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 5,425
# 52
01-27-2013, 10:56 AM
Like I say, I think the real issue is that they need to make it so that cruisers want aggro and escorts don't.

The unique problem for STO as opposed to other MMOs in the WoW/EQ/CoX mold is the lack of class-based resource generation. (Ie. rage/fury/mana/focus/combo.)

Without this, classes blur together.

The problem is that everyone wants to deal damage and nobody wants to take damage or heal under this setup.

A cruiser (with the exception of a couple of special abilities) doesn't gain firepower or utility by being a damage sponge. And yet, that's what it's there to be. Meanwhile, an escort doesn't lose enough utility when it takes aggro.
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 5,425
# 53
01-27-2013, 11:22 AM
I think what they need to do is this:

Boost all enemy damage and health by 10%. Reduce damage resistance of a ship that has more threat than its teammates, proportional to how much threat it generates but inversely proportional to how much it starts with. So a high resistance ship gets less of a debuff whereas a low damage resistance ship gets a more substantial debuff. (The tech may seem tricky but I have a trick for how to accomplish this on the back end.)

Create a team buff that cruisers generate for non-cruisers on the team when they have aggro, boosting their firepower and lowering their threat. Create an innate increased threat rate hike for cruisers. This doesn't stack by number of cruisers on the team but can be enhanced if the cruiser outpaces other teammates on threat gen by enough. The highest tiers of this increase cruiser firepower dramatically.

Create a team buff that escorts generate for non-escorts on the team when they don't have aggro, boosting their firepower and increasing their threat. Create an innate reduced threat rate for escorts. This doesn't stack by number of escorts on the team but can be enhanced if the escort underperforms other teammates on threat gen by enough. The highest tiers of this also personally enhance escort firepower without generating increased threat.

Create a team buff that science vessels generate for non-science vessels on the team that boosts accuracy and resistance against holds and immobilization effects constantly. Science vessels have no threat mod in either direction but support abilities function as a negative taunt, lowering the threat level of the science vessel to enemy targets whereas subsystem targeting acts as a taunt. These passive abilities DO stack based on the number of science ships on the team.

Another thought, somewhat unrelated to the above proposal:

Cryptic should consider reducing the total amount of subsystem power available but giving each ship class innate SUPER-"Efficient" boosts for subsystems which are not the primary focus of that class.

So a cruiser gets efficient weapons and aux, an escort gets efficient shields and aux, and a science vessel gets efficient weapons and engines. This way, an escort captain who attempts to tank or a cruiser captain focused on damage gets less total power to distribute.
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,173
# 54
01-27-2013, 11:35 AM
A simple fix for this would require more than merely juggling stats which Cryptic likes to do instead of pure coding.

In short, offer rewards for healing/buffing. Make support and mob control worth something. Just because DPS is king doesn't mean other classes need to become Jokers....
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 5,948
# 55
01-27-2013, 11:38 AM
That's a good idea. But instead of an active group buff, have it part of a ships passive group buff.


This could give some ships reason to play them again if they had such additional benefits than wasting points on Threat Skill or Threat Generating consoles. (Which the majority of Cruiser and Escort Captain's don't use since they are typically using the Science slots for Field Generators or Borg Consoles).
NO to ARC!

Season 9.5 = STO's NGE is Here! Welcome to the Grind!

New Crafting = It's not Crafting, is an overblown Reputation System.
Empire Veteran
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 2,202
# 56
01-27-2013, 11:49 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by disposeableh3r0 View Post
It's too bad too. I know the dev's read through the forums, if these people didn't bury all the ideas in a mountain of their "opinion facts" maybe things we want would actualy make it into the game.
And if those who complain all the time about their ships took a look at themlsevles (and to how they use it) things would change dramatically too. This kind of argument is just plain and simple trolling and you did it in your own topic, congrats.

Quote:
Originally Posted by stoleviathan99 View Post
A cruiser (with the exception of a couple of special abilities) doesn't gain firepower or utility by being a damage sponge. And yet, that's what it's there to be. Meanwhile, an escort doesn't lose enough utility when it takes aggro.
Actually when you fly an escort you do, because you have to keep moving to stay alive when you have npcs aggroed. If you stop moving you die, and since NPCs are damn slow you can't really use your DHCs anyway, which means that when you are aggroed you do very little damage, unless the NPC is pathetic.

Maybe the problem is that NPCs are way too weak, if they were stronger there would be no such threads.

Last edited by diogene0; 01-27-2013 at 11:54 AM.
Captain
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 1,966
# 57
01-27-2013, 01:47 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by diogene0 View Post
If you need shield power to tank then you have a problem. Of course if you use aux to bat then it's the source of your problems. Anyway I must be a wizard then, since even on ships with 6-8 turnrate i often have the best heal score and a good dps one in premades in STFs when i use a cruiser with beams. Must be magics, not a good build.
You are seriously going to say that increasing the passive regeneration of your shields and their resistances, which is pretty much like having a TSS on you at all times, is a bad idea for tanking?

And you have the best heal score? ROFL, that makes you a healer in the classic trinity bud not the tank. The tank attempts to avoid and reduce the damage they take. I'd bet good money your 'premade' would see a dramatic increase in performance by having an escort tanking while you supported them but that would be a bit more complicated and interfere with you kirking it up I suppose.

Finally I'd wager good money your definition of good damage and mine vary significantly. Being that I PuG I find it necessary to have enough damage to borderline solo the STF in that category.

Quote:
Originally Posted by diogene0 View Post
And if those who complain all the time about their ships took a look at themlsevles (and to how they use it) things would change dramatically too. This kind of argument is just plain and simple trolling and you did it in your own topic, congrats.



Actually when you fly an escort you do, because you have to keep moving to stay alive when you have npcs aggroed. If you stop moving you die, and since NPCs are damn slow you can't really use your DHCs anyway, which means that when you are aggroed you do very little damage, unless the NPC is pathetic.

Maybe the problem is that NPCs are way too weak, if they were stronger there would be no such threads.
See this is so wrong it is not even funny. In an escort I do keep moving and I do keep the target under my DHC guns. It is called the yo-yo maneuver where you go forward at 1/4th, then reverse, then forward. I can tank and do damage all at the same time even in an escort with ease.

There are those of us who seek optimum performance, who min/max so to speak. When approaching it from that angle the imbalances are ridiculous. Sure you can do a five man CSE run with five cruisers and get it done. Or you could do a CSE and an ISE with five escorts in the same amount of time.

The disparity is so large yet because of how easy the game is some do not realize it.

And the really sad thing? If it wasn't so easy cruisers would still be garbage. I can get 1.6k passive shield regeneration every six seconds on a Sci Vessel. That is insane. You can push over 150% bonus defense in the right escort. And both of the mentioned can bang against the 75% shield resist hard-cap with ease.

Last edited by bareel; 01-27-2013 at 03:28 PM.
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 5,425
# 58
01-27-2013, 05:26 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by diogene0 View Post
And if those who complain all the time about their ships took a look at themlsevles (and to how they use it) things would change dramatically too. This kind of argument is just plain and simple trolling and you did it in your own topic, congrats.



Actually when you fly an escort you do, because you have to keep moving to stay alive when you have npcs aggroed. If you stop moving you die, and since NPCs are damn slow you can't really use your DHCs anyway, which means that when you are aggroed you do very little damage, unless the NPC is pathetic.

Maybe the problem is that NPCs are way too weak, if they were stronger there would be no such threads.
That's why I'd buff NPCs but supply passive buffs that reward good teamwork and appropriate role-taking.

In game with rage/fury/etc. tanking classes can do great DPS but hitting that point requires that they're taking enough damage (or dealing enough control tactics in the case of more exotic classes) that someone else has to stop to heal them. Damage dealt is tied to damage taken via resource system.

Meanwhile, supplying damage bonuses to flanking causes DPS classes in other MMOs to attack the side of a target which is opposite to where aggro causes the target to face.

One solution there might be if NPCs had stronger foreward shield facings and weaker rear facings.

One thing that would "Trek things up" for me is if STO had vertical/horizontal strafing (it happened enough onscreen) and maybe they made enemies hit from above or below more vulnerable while targets tend to stay on an even plane with targets that aggro them.
Empire Veteran
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 2,202
# 59
01-27-2013, 05:48 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by bareel View Post
See this is so wrong it is not even funny. In an escort I do keep moving and I do keep the target under my DHC guns. It is called the yo-yo maneuver where you go forward at 1/4th, then reverse, then forward. I can tank and do damage all at the same time even in an escort with ease..
Yes it works if the NPCs are pathetic enough. In harder instances though a healer and a debuffer make your life really easier, such as hive onslaught, which is good. The easiness of the game gives the illusion that DPS is enough. When it's getting serious it's not. If you want to improve the overall quality of the game and "spread out" the fun, you could also ask for a major buff to the number of abilities endgame NPCs use, and also a signifcant buff to battleship NPCs, which are completely underpowered for some weird reason. You will get the same result but it will be funnier for everyone instead of making all classes similar, which makes no sense if you like playing alts. I think variety is something we shouldn't get rid of just because the AI and its lack of abilitiesand powers sucks hard.

Last edited by diogene0; 01-27-2013 at 05:51 PM.
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,764
# 60
01-27-2013, 06:00 PM
Well... I think we're looking at this the wrong way.

All ships can mount tricobombs. Add an DPBx + 2 tric mines to every ship running STF content and you'll suddenly see massive dps improvements way more than focusing on energy. I've even brought a beamboat healcruiser into a pug and still managed to get the optional.

Of course an escort is STILL better for dps because it can drop 4 bombs per salvo versus 2/3 a sci or cruiser gets, but that's for being a ship with a Comm Tac slot, you trade survivability for blowing **** up.

PVP itself is a different ballgame, you only need 1 escort and everyone else is a cruiser or sci to make the team and that glass cannon live until the next alpha strike.
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