Captain
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 2,389
# 11
01-27-2013, 04:12 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by doomicile View Post
This is not a proper solution by any means. There are already too many JHAS's polluting PvP as it is. Whereas I used to only see 1 on any given team, now I see at least 2 or more.

I don't even like the Bug and I certainly don't want one. It's not the end-all ship in an ideal 1 on 1 but it certainly skews the odds in team PvP without any real skill required, just proper BOFF loadout and gear/Doff's.

Many of the people who have the Jem Bug paid a lot of money for it and I don't want to see it nerfed but Cryptic needs to do something to balance PvP to make many of the other VA ships viable, C-store, Lockbox or otherwise.

Personally, I feel a considerable defense nerf to speed/maneuverability would be the best option. I know a lot of Escort pilots would shout BOO! but Fighters were never meant to tank. If you're taking heat, you pop Omega and/or Evasive and heal up.
Your nerf to speed/manueverability would effectively kill the ability of APO and Evasive to do what you're suggesting-it would only tilt the balance back to Cruisercentricity.

It would also render BoPs pretty much useless in PvP, and largely useless in PvE. (see, there's that whole "Tinfoil armor and toiletpaper shields" issue...) reason being, Battlecloak as a defensive measure...isn't. not without speed and the chance to not be hit by incoming fire-the 3 sec. or so as you pass between uncloaked, and cloaked, your shields (what shields you have) go down, things that hit are far more likely to critical in that situation, and without speed for defense, they're a hell of a lot more likely to hit you during the vulnerable period (i.e. the period while they can SEE you.)

Of course, the Bugship doesn't, and never did, have that problem, nor did it have the lower shield mods of other, more common Escorts, nor did it suffer from poor Bridge Officer seating, nor lack of useful console space, lack of turn rate, slow impulse-nothing, actually, no flaws. Now the Devs have added powers specific to it that mimic the abilities of Captain careers, but with a shorter cooldown.
"when you're out of Birds of Prey, you're out of ships."
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 135
# 12
01-27-2013, 05:21 PM
When they come out with a new doff pack the old doff pack will start dropping lobi and jem'hadar attack ships like cryptic has done before so try to get one then I know I'll try to get one.
http://sto-forum.perfectworld.com/sh...d.php?t=490421 We want this help build support!
Commander
Join Date: Oct 2012
Posts: 289
# 13
01-27-2013, 05:40 PM
I have a Bug and it is a Monster but there are ways to counter it. I also have the Fleet MVAE and Defiant and they are just as deadly as the Bug. The Fleet MVAE with 5 Tac consoles and a hold ability can realy cause some pain.
Commander
Join Date: Oct 2012
Posts: 289
# 14
01-27-2013, 05:40 PM
I have a Bug and it is a Monster but there are waus to counter it. I also have the Fleet MVAE and Defiant and they are just as deadly as the Bug. The Fleet MVAE with 5 Tac consoles and a hold ability can realy cause some pain.
Captain
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 9,094
# 15
01-27-2013, 05:47 PM
Bah, wait until they add the Plesh Brek (Breen Bug), Sarr Theln (Heavy Warship Carrier w/Bleth Choas drain fighters), and Rezreth (Dreadnought Carrier w/Bleth Choas or Plesh Brek)...along with the additional Breen consoles. By that time, there will also be additional proliferation of Fed/KDF consoles.
Willard the Rat, Reman, F.T'varo - Rave, J.Trill, Kar'Fi - Mysk, Gorn, Varanus
Maal, Klingon, Mogh - Vegar, Orion, Marauder
Nivuh, Ferasan, B'rel - Venit, Lethaen, M.Qin - Kopor, Nausicaan, Guramba
Empire Veteran
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 6,265
# 16
01-27-2013, 06:11 PM
Bugs have long been the pinnacle of escorts so its not surprising that the gain well from the new "whatever".

ApO doesnt need a defense nerf because it is built on the concpet that being an attack pattern it has an tactical evasion buff played put by the turn buff , speed boost and defensive bonus. The anti-hold versus TB may need a looksy bt overall I think its fine.

Possibly as some have suggested large ship like cruisers and some science should get a inherent defense bonus for thier massive size to balance out the escorfs defensive bonus for speed ?
Captain
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 9,094
# 17
01-27-2013, 07:35 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by bitemepwe View Post
Possibly as some have suggested large ship like cruisers and some science should get a inherent defense bonus for thier massive size to balance out the escorfs defensive bonus for speed ?
Escort: +Defense*, +Turn, +Impulse Modifier*, -Shield Modifier
Cruiser: +Hull, -Turn
Science: -Hull, +Shield Modifier

Escort has base Hull.
Cruiser has base Shield, Defense, and Impulse Modifier.
Science has base Turn, Defense, and Impulse Modifier.

*What's the deal with the asterisk? The higher Impulse Modifier also means it's easier to hit the Bonus Defense cap in an Escort (80%) than in a Cruiser or Science Vessel (70%).

This obviously ignores BOFF layouts, console slots, individual ship bonuses, etc, etc, etc, etc. It's very crude - one of those quick glances and that's what kind of stands out.

And it's often ignored, unfortunately. Those additional things matter. Sticking with the Bug, I present the following (no, I don't have this):

Engineer Captain

Passives
Romulan: +Shield Systems, OnBeingCritShieldHealProc
Omega: +Hull Regen, +ShieldRegen

TT1, THY2, APO1, APO3
TT1, TS2, APD2

EPtS1, RSP1
ET1

TSS1, HE2
(All Human BOFFs)

DOFFs: SDO(BFI), ME(ET), 3x PWO(Torp)

Weapons
Fore: 3x Rapid Trans, Breen Cluster
Aft: Rapid Trans, Breen Cluster, Disruptor Turret

Deflector: Borg
Engine: Borg
Shields: AMACO/KHG

Devices: Eng Batt, Aux Batt

Consoles
Tac: Borg, 4x Compressor
Eng: SIF, 2x Neut, Tachyo
Sci: Rom Emitter [HuH]

Power: 25/100/25/50

WTF is that? It's nothing, just an example. With many of the complaints about various things out there...if people were to share such information - their builds...there would probably be quite a few responses of: WTF is that?

Because those other things matter - but - people have their expectations all over the place and there's folks even further out past left field than I normally am. Again, no - I don't have that particular Bug build. If I had a Bug, I'd go Plasma Torps.
Willard the Rat, Reman, F.T'varo - Rave, J.Trill, Kar'Fi - Mysk, Gorn, Varanus
Maal, Klingon, Mogh - Vegar, Orion, Marauder
Nivuh, Ferasan, B'rel - Venit, Lethaen, M.Qin - Kopor, Nausicaan, Guramba
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 222
# 18
01-27-2013, 08:11 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by admgreer View Post
I have a Bug and it is a Monster but there are ways to counter it. I also have the Fleet MVAE and Defiant and they are just as deadly as the Bug. The Fleet MVAE with 5 Tac consoles and a hold ability can realy cause some pain.
If only everyone thought this way when it concerned other "stuff" Cryptic releases... There is ALWAYS a way around something. You just have to find it and adapt.

BTW a simple tac team clears the "Analyze Weakness" ability immediately and its on a two second power up before it activates. Thats only 3 secs between tac teams to time it perfectly if someone is using 2 tac teams... Its not unbeatable and giving the UI lag in the game, you will be lucky to get it to hit in PvP unless of course you are sub nuked and can't do anything at all anyways and you would be dead meat as well already.

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Lt. Commander
Join Date: Oct 2012
Posts: 111
# 19 its a not op
01-28-2013, 09:31 AM
a few words about the bug,

It takes a clever person to build a effective bug ship boff layout and console layout, due to the ship having such a lack-luster boff layout.

It takes a very good pilot to make the bug ship competitive in pvp due to the ships mediocre turn, hull, and shields.

The bug ship is one of the most expensive vessels in STO, and for all of that rarity it performs not good enough in pvp to justify its cost.

In fact, the bug ships been in need of some love for some time now.

For starters,

Ramping up the Jem-set (shield, deflector, engine) to mk12 so now bug pilots can use the semi-helpful "victory is life" is a start, but far from being a game changer.

Releasing phased/polaron dual heavys helps a little bit too, but still theres no guarantee that the polaron or phaser proc will even work on every shot fired, and thats not fair.

The new Jem-only consoles do not provide enough bonuses for pvp for bug ships to justify the cost of getting 2 additional jem-ships, both very expensive in their own respects. Why cryptic is trying to get the bug pilot player base to acquire these 2 other jem-ships for the 2pcs console set for their bugs is completely unknown, as it does not benefit them enough in pvp.

As to the bug as a ship in pvp,

The hull and shield rating is to low on a bug ship for it to survive in pvp, it needs constant healing from fellow players in pvp matches to even stay around for more than a couple seconds, cryptic needs to increase its base shield rating and hull to make up for this deficit so the bug ship can be competitive with the fleet version escorts in pvp.

The turn rate on the bug ship is a hair better than the defiant, but it is still not enough turn. The bug ship needs a higher turn in order for it to even be a choice for pvp combat as even the best bug pilots struggle to gain positioning against even the most pathetic of opponents during pvp matches.

Over all, all those that fly bug ships are superior pilots in every way as they have so little to work with in regards to the bug ship.

The bug ship is always a fair opponent to go up against when comparing it to other escorts due to the bug ships poor stats, why other players don't respect the skills of bug ship pilots just shows how little they know about the mechanics of the game.

We all know that the bug ship needs more help, the new 2 pcs consoles, synergy weapons, and jem-engine/deflector/shields set- is a start, but the ship needs more.

The bug ship just needs more hull, shields, crew, and turn to be competitive in pvp.

other possible fixes cryptic could do to the bug ship to make it a viable choice for pvp could be:

-make all ship-specific consoles ALWAYS work on a bug ship

-add a universal commander boff slot, so the bug ship could have 6 boff slots

-add a 6th tac console slot, so the bug ship can make up for its lack of dps

-add a enhanced battle cloak to the bug

-add a phaser lance to the bug

on a final side note:

People need to respect the awesome skillz it takes to fly a bug ship at the top levels of pvp. It takes macros, changing items mid-match, using insane amounts of teamwork, and coordination via voice programs such as TS or Vent to even get 1 kill in a pvp pug match with a bug ship.

The elite player base that fly bugs and get a few kills in pvp..... what people don't understand is..... (starts to cry) it took those guys YEARS of playing this game! amassing vast amounts of knowledge of the game mechanics, to even remotely make a competitive pvp bug ship! I mean, no one can just simply get one and simply add a cookie cutter tac/scort build to it, and expect to do good in pvp



something must be done
Just because it is not a cookie cutter escort does not mean it should not be in the game.

Win or lose, in the end it does not reflect on who you are as a person, in the end it is how you treat others that really reflects who you are.
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,616
# 20
01-28-2013, 09:35 AM
Almost had me there.


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