Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,015
# 61
01-28-2013, 12:02 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by borticuscryptic View Post
When I say Global in this instance, I mean just that. If hit with a Placate, you would gain an immunity period to ALL further Placate effects for a certain duration. Regardless of the source.

We don't do Global immunities in STO very frequently, which is why I'm running it by the PvP community before testing it out.
Consider this my vote for a global placate immunity triggered by a family of similar effects.

Something that might also be equitable would be setting something like the Sensors skill in opposition to placates. Or maybe Starship Targeting so that the counter to it could be rank cheaper than Threat Control or Sensors, which could add to it (Sensors already does for SS, no?). I have no idea how difficult this would be to implement, and the very idea makes me nervous based on the varying levels of effectiveness we've had out of PI.

Basically, if we can't skill against it, and it can be skilled and doff'd for greater effect, then yes go with a global immunity.

I get the argument that the global immunity could "rob" someone of the opportunity to use SS or Jam if it was triggered by a teammate's passive. A big part of this is how ridiculous it is to constantly have targets look like they're under battlecloak, and the impact on things like SA, TB, and other maintained abilities. What if once the immunity was in place active abilities like SS and Jam still applied a very short duration but modest accuracy debuff? You would still get something for your money, even if it's not the full placate.
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,454
# 62
01-28-2013, 12:03 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by inktomi19 View Post
I think the separate cool-down for passives is probably a good idea too (though I'd include the tier 5 romulan rep power with them)

Science BOff powers tend to annoy me, but if a player has a certain power, he gave up something else useful. The problem with the passive placates and the T5 romulan placate is that they are essentially free.

On my science ship I run polarize hull, HE, TSS, and gravity well in the slots where I could use placates. So if I used a placate there, I'd be giving up something else which I found effective.

But the passive placates are essentially free. Even the DOff one on Charged Particle Burst is basically free, since if I'm built for CPB there really aren't other DOffs I would use there.

What I'm getting at is that placates need to be limitted, but the ones where you give up something to get them are already limited enough.
Isn't the T5 ability a cloak? It has a 10 minute cooldown iirc.
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,454
# 63
01-28-2013, 12:13 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by redricky View Post
Consider this my vote for a global placate immunity triggered by a family of similar effects.

Something that might also be equitable would be setting something like the Sensors skill in opposition to placates. Or maybe Starship Targeting so that the counter to it could be rank cheaper than Threat Control or Sensors, which could add to it (Sensors already does for SS, no?). I have no idea how difficult this would be to implement, and the very idea makes me nervous based on the varying levels of effectiveness we've had out of PI.

Basically, if we can't skill against it, and it can be skilled and doff'd for greater effect, then yes go with a global immunity.

I get the argument that the global immunity could "rob" someone of the opportunity to use SS or Jam if it was triggered by a teammate's passive. A big part of this is how ridiculous it is to constantly have targets look like they're under battlecloak, and the impact on things like SA, TB, and other maintained abilities. What if once the immunity was in place active abilities like SS and Jam still applied a very short duration but modest accuracy debuff? You would still get something for your money, even if it's not the full placate.
Sci Team is a hard counter to Boff based and some console based placates though. It too can be boosted by doffs as well. So, to me they're a bit of a wash. Irrc there was a 20 second immunity already in place to prevent chaining these effects.

SS isn't just about not being shot @, it also has the potential to disrupt a target's allied coordination. Likewise Jam Sensor can provide an opportunity to debuff a target w/o the target directly doing anything back to you during that window.

Personally, I'd rather see a strong/long immunity from passives to keep active placates viable.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Jan 2013
Posts: 141
# 64
01-28-2013, 12:35 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by p2wsucks View Post
Isn't the T5 ability a cloak? It has a 10 minute cooldown iirc.
It is. I've just come back after a while , so I was mistaken. Doesn't change the point about the other passives though.

A big part of the problem is that NPCs shoot slowly, and don't use very many powers, so short control powers are comparatively weak against them. There's no guarantee an NPC was going to do anything dangerous in the time that the placate is up anyway. So when you're balancing around PvE, the shield healing that you get as an alternative to the placates isn't horrible in comparison.

But in PvP, you can have 10,000 points of shields burned down in a split second, so just not being target-able for a few seconds is far superior to the alternatives.

I'm definitely with you on the point that the BOff placates ought to be off the global cooldown though. Those have an opportunity cost that the passives don't.

Last edited by inktomi19; 01-28-2013 at 12:44 PM.
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,015
# 65
01-28-2013, 12:50 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by p2wsucks View Post
Sci Team is a hard counter to Boff based and some console based placates though. It too can be boosted by doffs as well. So, to me they're a bit of a wash. Irrc there was a 20 second immunity already in place to prevent chaining these effects.

SS isn't just about not being shot @, it also has the potential to disrupt a target's allied coordination. Likewise Jam Sensor can provide an opportunity to debuff a target w/o the target directly doing anything back to you during that window.

Personally, I'd rather see a strong/long immunity from passives to keep active placates viable.
I feel you for sure on SS. I was just trying to get at leaving something for the active abilities to still do while the immunity was up, if that's even possible.

While I would like to see a shared global immunity for a family of placates, I see what you're saying and I think it's a good point that the active and passive ones might not belong in the same family.
Empire Veteran
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 6,533
# 66
01-28-2013, 01:02 PM
im so not surprised to hear that the placate was happening to often, glad thats being fixed. really, that 12 second duration needs to be raised to at LEAST 20 seconds. the way Broken parses the adapted maco, i think it might be working to well compared to the khg shield.

that might be a place to start the global at, 20 seconds. there really needs to be one, a 20 second window i know i can use right after a placate i can do something with.
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Starfleet Veteran
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 269
# 67
01-28-2013, 01:06 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by borticuscryptic View Post
When I say Global in this instance, I mean just that. If hit with a Placate, you would gain an immunity period to ALL further Placate effects for a certain duration. Regardless of the source.

We don't do Global immunities in STO very frequently, which is why I'm running it by the PvP community before testing it out.
Not all of this you have proposed is a great idea and I'll tell you why. It's because you're proposing this long immunity affects Bridge Officer powers as well.

While I do agree that something needs to be done with all the placates I'm also of the opinion you need to be fair to Scramble Sensors. It's been repeatedly nerfed over and over for a year now and you're just giving people more reason not to run it. There are other Bridge Officer powers that this immunity will be affecting to I would assume such as Jam Sensors, yes? Why not let your resists do what they are supposed to do? The placate immunity affect should be linked to your starship sensors skill. At least the duration of the immunity so if a person doesn't spec for it then they don't get a very long one. Start at 10 seconds and let the Sensor skill increase it from there. You do have to pay for the placates anyway on your build in the fact that you have to grind for it. Don't give a long immunity away for free. I get blasted with placates all the time in PvP and I don't see what all the crying is about. People need to set themselves to not auto-target pets anyway.

Quote:
Originally Posted by redricky View Post
I feel you for sure on SS. I was just trying to get at leaving something for the active abilities to still do while the immunity was up, if that's even possible.
That's one reason why Scramble should be excluded from the placate list because it already does have a hard counter.

Last edited by rooster75; 01-28-2013 at 01:22 PM.
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 223
# 68
01-28-2013, 01:13 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by borticuscryptic View Post
Diving headlong into a dual-functionality system like you suggest is basically agreeing to double our workload, for half the benefit. It may be seen immediately as being good for the PvP community, but in the long run it will mean that our precious few man hours that are slated for bug fixes and balance will be spent even less frequently on PvP. Once we segregate it off, this small community will again be a minority too small for frequent consideration.

You don't want that. It's not in your best interest, no matter how good it looks on paper.

We don't want that. It means our quality and quantity of fixes both suffer, and every new piece of gear or power require twice as much development and prototype time and effort.
Its starting!!!! LOL Finally.

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Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 876
# 69
01-28-2013, 01:18 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by borticuscryptic View Post
When I say Global in this instance, I mean just that. If hit with a Placate, you would gain an immunity period to ALL further Placate effects for a certain duration. Regardless of the source.

We don't do Global immunities in STO very frequently, which is why I'm running it by the PvP community before testing it out.
If possible, I would suggest the immunity only apply to the KHG/Adapted Maco placate as well as the tier 4 passive.

Jam Sensors is one of the worst skills in the game, and needs to be buffed or changed for the better (really, just changing the skill back to how it behaved at launch would be sufficient). It doesn't need to be made even weaker by having this immunity period limiting it.
Starfleet Veteran
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 269
# 70
01-28-2013, 01:23 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by hurleybird View Post
If possible, I would suggest the immunity only apply to the KHG/Adapted Maco placate as well as the tier 4 passive.

Jam Sensors is one of the worst skills in the game, and needs to be buffed or changed for the better
+1

...and add Scramble Sensors to this category as well.
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