Empire Veteran
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 785
# 31
01-29-2013, 09:26 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by mariston View Post
I submit, any power or device that is "mandatory" in order to survive in PVP is overpowered (or the competing powers are underpowered).

An example is Tac Team. Every single recommended PVP build I have seen has one or more copies of Tac Team listed. In my own experiences, my turn rate and manual shield rebalancing is insufficient to keep up under heavy fire; so... I must carry Tac Team or I am decimated within seconds. The only power that is even close is Reverse Shield Polarity, and its cooldown is too long to make it economical to replace Tac Team. The neccessity of carrying Tac Team hinders cruisers and sci vessels and their limited tactical BOFF slots.

Because everyone (sorry for the generalization) accepts that Tac Team is a requirement for PVP, no one questions how underpowered any competing powers are. Even worse, the need for a build that includes Tac Team hinders potential creative builds.

Although this sounds like a crusade against Tac Team, it is not. I am stating that any power, console, device, etc that is considered a requirement to be good at PVP is either overpowered or the alternate powers are underpowered.
+1
Since the game started I've wanted to slot in Attack pattern Delta onto my tanking cruisers, but the necessity for TT1 plus some form of AoE taunt slash weapons damage buff in FAW means my 2 tac slots will never change to anything else. PvP or PvE.
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Devs, need Fleet Orion Marauder and Dacoit please! :-)

Using - Bulwark, Voth Fighter. Favs - Fleet Corsair, Mogh, Bastion, Nicor, JHEC, JAS
Some others - Orion Marauder, Chel Grett, Guramba, Risian Corvette, Risian Cruiser
Republic Veteran
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 124
# 32
01-29-2013, 10:14 PM
Having 5 Human Boff is extremely overpowered. Having tested it, it has overshadowed the efficient trait and possibly even better than the new Romulan crit chance boffs. These Boffs stack linearly and provide a +100 to Starship Subsystem Repair when having 5 equipped. This renders several science abilities useless such as target subsystem and viral matrix. Viral matrix is reduced from a 14 second disable to a 3 second disable, practically negligible. Don't forget that leadership also provides another bonus, starship hull regeneration. This also gains a 100% starship hull regeneration when stacking 5 of them and each one gains +20% to hull regeneration. This would be comparable to the Assimilated Borg set 2-piece proc that gives a large hull regeneration except that there is no duration attached to the leadership trait. This would negate any damage that utilizes damage over time such as plasma torpedo/energy, hargh'peng torpedo, eject warp plasma, etc.
Captain
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 2,192
# 33
01-29-2013, 10:52 PM
Resistance Skills means squat. No matter how high you have them, it won't help you, so you might as well do not have it. My nebula has +250 sensors, and I still eat every placate, every SS and on top of that AMS for full duration.

Perhaps giving these skills a secondary passive bonus would be appropriate, so it does not feel like points wasted.

Tactical team I is too powerful aka must have. I wouldn't mind if the shield distro function would work so well on rank II and III. But on rank I it is pretty stupid. But the currently ungodly spike dmg potential is to blame. I understand escorts love it (surprise surprise) because they have use for tactical ensing, but keep in mind for some ships its half the tactical slots. It also makes using engineering and science team too risky.

Energy tactical consoles are too good. The difference between 2 and 5 console ships is wider and wider with all gear upgrade. Compared to let's say engineering consoles. Armor consoles have diminishing returns, so should dmg consoles.

Some universal consoles are too good. Like AMS, graviton pulse.
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 3,203
# 34
01-29-2013, 11:56 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by pwebranflakes View Post
Please see my post right above yours. Which ships and why do you think this?

Cheers,

Brandon =/\=
I know this thread is mostly about space, but a few of us have asked here and in many other threads about whether the compressed cryo launcher will be looked at for balancing.
It is ruining ground pvp. Can we please finally have an answer to this so I know if I should keep my ground characters or just delete them and free the slots up.
Captain
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 3,126
# 35
01-30-2013, 12:16 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by devorasx View Post
Ye, we have all figured that out, but it seems your qualms is more with science captain skills then let alone science abilites.
You asked me a question and I answered it, my problem with science skills is that everyone can use them better than a science captain which I feel is silly as it is supposed to be their speciality, I can understand why engineers get an unintentional bonus to their power in a science ship (Being able to put insane amounts of power into a science ship can do evil things) but there is no reason why attack patterns should boost the power of science skills.

Science suffers twice as a result of tac powers buffing sci skills as to be balanced they therefore have to be ineffective to anyone who doesn't run full aux power (Thus eliminating your power to actually kill stuff) combined with beam arrays having such low damage potential anyway means that you may as well not bother with sci/sci (with the exception of the Vesta) as you're ineffective in all ways other than setting something up for someone else.

Hence the two concerns I mentioned being beam damage being horribly low due to their own energy drain thus setting them way behind anything else (Except turrets) and science skills (See above paragraph)
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,354
# 36
01-30-2013, 12:59 AM
The bug ship does need balancing with the rest of the fleet escorts although the gap isnt as big as it used to be.
Before anyone says anything, i own this ship as well as the fleet mvam and the fleet defiant so i am comparing the top 3 escorts side by side.
As mentioned earlier, its superior in every way almost. If a good pilot flys all three in any match, the bug would do better full stop. Anyone who says otherwise is a liar.

Maybe another way of balancing things is to not "nerf" the bug, but to buff the fleet escorts in way of defiant getting a slight turn buff and a universal ensign. This in my opinion would make it a seriously viable alternative.
The fleet mvam is almost there but just misses the mark. Maybe just a universal low tier station and voila. The bug grudges are gone

This would give the unlucky folks a very viable alternative.

At the same time its a win for cryptic in way of people dropping zen to get the modules to unlock the ships. Everyones a winner.
aka NazHuggyBear2

"No, there is no real problem with P2W in STO. Obviously, if you fight against someone with an equal level of skill in the game, better equipment will give you an edge. But usually, it is the skill level that determines the outcome, not the P2W." - Sprinkles

Last edited by naz4; 01-30-2013 at 01:04 AM.
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 870
# 37
01-30-2013, 01:02 AM
Alrighty Branflakes, you want a simple and direct posting of what needs fixing?



Boarding. Parties.


Even up to Boarding Party 3, this ability is instantly countered by tactical team 1, a power which 80% of ships run at least one of. Even with all the buffs, it is so easily countered and so difficult to actually benefit from as to be a complete waste of the skill, regardless of how many doffs you stack on it or what abilities they give it.


But let's compare the numbers with a similar power from a different discipline, shall we?

(disclaimer: All numbers taken from STOwiki)

Boarding Party 1, with no skill ranks beyond the first:


1 min, 40 second cooldown. (reduced by up to 60 seconds with full ranks)
Creates 3 shuttles which must survive their way to the enemy ship (this the *only* boff power which can be shot down)
Induces -10 crew from your total per shuttle (for a total of 30, although greater numbers are possible with doffs), although this is refunded if they return (which they will never do because any given ship has tac team 1 running, so they all die)
To target: 50% chance to disable a subsystem for 10 seconds.
To target: 75% chance to kill % crew per shuttle
To target: 50% chance to add delay to recharge timeof energy weapons, projectiles, engineering, or science abilities.


Note: In practice, these abilities take at least five, if not ten seconds to actually 'activate'- so for instance, the first shuttle hits the target. No systems will be disabled, no crew will be killed, and no powers will be delayed for at least five seconds, if at all.


Boarding party 1 has, effectively, a 50% chance to do nothing at all.

Countered by:

Tactical Team 1, 2, and 3
Engineering Team 1, 2, and 3
Transfer Shield Strength with transporter doff



Viral Matrix 1, with no skill ranks beyond the first:

1 min, 40 second cooldown. (reduced by up to 60 seconds with full ranks)
Disable one subsytem for 4 seconds (IIRC the length is increased with extra ranks)

Countered by:

Engineering Team 1, 2, and 3.

Viral matrix cannot be shot down, and can only be countered by one ability (engineering team) which is not run on all, or even a majority of ships. Viral matrix takes effect instantly, and has doffs which improve the breadth of its ability directly- whether adding an additional subsystem shutdown to take effect after the main one, or allowing it to spread, parasitically, to other nearby ships.

It is a simple, and very effective power which is widely used in pvp.


Contrast with boarding party, which, while has a greater 'apparent' breadth of ability by default, has so many counters, flaws, or faults that it is nearly entirely useful either in PVP or PvE.






It is my opinion that the power, while thematic, is in need of a complete and total reworking, from the ground up. If it continues in its current form, then it will remain an obscure and useless ability that many try because it seems quite cool, but all discard after finding out just how poorly implemented it is.

Some of those users will make posts on this very forum, or the boff powers forum about how badly implemented it is, especially in practical situations and given testing. Those threads will be commented on, briefly, but will eventually fall off the first page (usually within a day or two), and be ignored in totality by the devs and the players whom though they themselves desperately would like to see an improvement to the power understand that no one will ever read their threads, and a fix will never be forthcoming.



----> Edit inserted: An 'easy fix' to boarding party would be to make its effect instant, from the arrival of the first shuttle. This would, even with the omnipresence of tactical team, allow it to be of at least some use from the outset, rather than theoretical use eventually, but only if the enemy doesn't use one of three available ways to counter it.




Anyways, Aceton Beam 3's cooldown is too long, and in general Aceton Beam is ineffectual as an engineering power. Although deceptive in its seeming usefulness, due to claiming to neutralize an enemy ship's energy weapons output (but in practice doing no such thing). With half the cooldown, and a rework to actually do what it claims (or even to claim what it actually does), it would be a power that might actually be worth something.



Tactical team is too strong still. Aside from specific builds the basic reasons to run tactical team are independent of its rating.

Suggestions for improvement:

1. Tactical team can only repel boarding parties if you actually have any crew left.
2. Tactical team has a % cap of your total shields that it can re-distribute, which increases based on ranking. So for example. assuming you have 10,000 shields per facing, perhaps tactical team 1 can only distribute a maximum of 20%, or 2000 shields from one facing to another. Tactical team 2 can distribute a maximum of 40%, and tac team 3 of 60%. (or 80% depending on your increases)

Clearing boarders and redistributing shields (but mostly the latter) are the primary reasons anyone runs tactical team. Nobody cares about the extra damage boost it grants to energy and projectiles given other, more useful higher level powers.

Last edited by illcadia; 01-30-2013 at 01:25 AM.
Rihannsu
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,717
# 38
01-30-2013, 01:39 AM
TT is OP, it is a poor mans RSP that gimps non Escorts since they have to slot it even if they only have a lt tac slot, thus loosing what little offensive options they had. It helps to make escorts much better tanks then they should be. The Shield redistribution is too strong. IMV, it should be removed from TT1 and added starting with TT2, TT3 should be half of the current value.
Accidentally, this is the reason why no-one has space for Eng team, hence all the VM GVP etx problems.

Ideally, a castable uber-heal in PvE (try NWS without Tac teams) and still must have heal in PvP, should be an Eng cpt skill. Not a tac Ensign skill at global CD. But since the Devs hate engs, give the shield distro to a LT and up Eng Bo skills (in a slightly weaker form) and give APD something much weaker in return. To compensate the poor tacs that for once have been hit with the nerf bat. That would put the option of running APD and APB before tacs, and still synergize with TT1.

I'm with Devoras, APO needs to be brought in line. Buff, Debuff, and Immunity in a skill that only tac ships have access to is BS. SCI and Cruiser cannot compete, not that there should be more "immune to everything skills" in game.

Eng class in space is useless, so are beam boats. Both Eng Cpt and BO powers need a good look at. Ens Eng has too little options, while TT does it all better (s.a.). Since doff introduced more and more ways to reduce CDs, the shared CD of ENg BO skills have become a big problem. CMD options are equally limited with next to zero benefit in PvE, and no synergy with eng player class in PvP. Eg. AUx2Sif2 from a sci is actually better then from most Eng in game right now, since sci has better reasons to run high aux, and brings SNB. MW does not make up for that. NE needs its numbers tweaked, and EPS has been obsoleted by Team batteries and set power boni. RSP3, BP3, AB3 all are ineffective for various reasons.

STill too much spam in game, both as pets and as annoying procs.

Dual cannons have been a joke for three years.

The Bug is OP, and yes I have one. OP, not unbeatable, still better then all other escorts. Buffing it every time that there is a new lockbox ship, doesn't help to make it less so. The Oddy and the Vesta fed side are equally obsoleting too many ships. Releasing the one escort/cruiser/carrier (recluse)/ sci boat to rule them all, limits options in PvP. It devalues the game play experience of many. I have designed toons to fly certain ships because I love them, but I can no longer justify fielding those in light of the much better options out there.

Lastly, sci resists are out of whack by an order of magnitude. The number of effective Sci BO Cmdr skills, is very limited, a sci/scort often does the job much better, both in PvE and PvP. Sci/sci needs to be viable again across the board of Cmrd options. (and yes i fly sci/sci most of the time)



Joined 06.10
PvP 2010-2011
PvP 2012-2013

Last edited by havam; 01-30-2013 at 02:26 AM.
Rihannsu
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,717
# 39
01-30-2013, 01:43 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by naz4 View Post
The bug ship does need balancing with the rest of the fleet escorts although the gap isnt as big as it used to be.
Before anyone says anything, i own this ship as well as the fleet mvam and the fleet defiant so i am comparing the top 3 escorts side by side.
As mentioned earlier, its superior in every way almost. If a good pilot flys all three in any match, the bug would do better full stop. Anyone who says otherwise is a liar.

Maybe another way of balancing things is to not "nerf" the bug, but to buff the fleet escorts in way of defiant getting a slight turn buff and a universal ensign. This in my opinion would make it a seriously viable alternative.
The fleet mvam is almost there but just misses the mark. Maybe just a universal low tier station and voila. The bug grudges are gone

This would give the unlucky folks a very viable alternative.

At the same time its a win for cryptic in way of people dropping zen to get the modules to unlock the ships. Everyones a winner.
Maybe we should just stop running non-escorts all together.

But on a serious note, if these FED escorts were to get buffed, we need much better escort options KDF side. If you think that fed scorts can't compete, take a look at their KDF counterparts. Giving the Defiant an ideal Setup, should only happen if we get ideal fleet options for cruisers, sci ships, carriers, and raiders in the fleet store as well. aka fleet voq'uv = recluse etc.
Joined 06.10
PvP 2010-2011
PvP 2012-2013

Last edited by havam; 01-30-2013 at 01:59 AM.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 167
# 40
01-30-2013, 01:47 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by naz4 View Post
Maybe another way of balancing things is to not "nerf" the bug, but to buff the fleet escorts in way of defiant getting a slight turn buff...

I agree with naz, JemHadar Attack Ship is to OP, other fed escorts need improvement in turnrate.
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