Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 597
# 111
01-30-2013, 12:07 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by p2wsucks View Post
My general point is the main issue imo isn't that APO does thing too much, it's that it does them too often now.
how does it do it too often? in the way that its omega 3 x2? or just cd wise? because ive always ran omega 3 and 1. so my omega was always up the same way it is now. but same could be said about et and sci team. only need 1 of thoes now because of doffs as well. reason you only need 2 apd is because if slotting delta in the mix. and even if you did not have a delta or beta the way the timers work you would still have that omega when ready. you get a full cycle of rapid fire with omega, next cycle you dont have an omega, next cycle you can have that oemga.

i dont know how you guys use omega but i use mine when im trying to get my kill. its not for and defense at all inless i really need to break a tractor and i cant click evasives. again as a wep buff. something that tt should be doing. but tt is for defense. thats why devlora says he sees escourts just drifting with omega up going for kills. and yoiu will notice it alot more when people are running psw with after shock doffs.
Captain
Join Date: Oct 2012
Posts: 663
# 112
01-30-2013, 12:10 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ussultimatum View Post
1) The Vesta is not a ship class.
2) The Vesta is a Sci ship first and foremost. Dealing damage is not it's primary function.
3) Cannon-vesta has the option to take APO 1 in the Ltc slot.




1) The Excelsior is not a ship class.
2) Cannon-Excelsior has a 180 degree firing arc. (4x as wide)
3) Burst damage is not the primary, or sole, function of the Excelsior.
4) The Excelsior can take APO 1 in the Ltc Tac slot.
There is nothing in the way to fit escorts with beams. Commenting that escort must use cannons as a reason to justify APO is silly, as there are options to make it easier to fire weapons.
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Lt. Commander
Join Date: Jan 2013
Posts: 141
# 113
01-30-2013, 12:10 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by broken1981 View Post
why are you so stuck on apo? again do you have a grasp on pvp? omega is not what saves me. its the healers
omega boost weps. maybe rework tt and i can use that to buff my weps.
It's because every ship is screwed if it gets immobilized -- everyone not only loses their defense from speed, but is given a negative defense rating. Immobilizing your enemy is one of the biggest damage buffs their is.

If you immobilize a sci ship, the extra damage is compounded by the fact that so many sci abilities are limited to the front arc.

Personally I wouldn't nerf APO though (beyond fixing it so that the defense buff lasts like the tool-tip says. But perhaps engineering and science powers should be buffed to provide similar immunity to mobility debuffs? Both already have abilities which go part-way, and adding something like PH to an escort running two copies of APO is very effective.

The problem is that the sci and engineering equivalents are not quite powerful enough to merit their opportunity cost in most cases.

PH could be buffed to provide general protection from movement debuffs, and that kind of makes sense with the power. That would give science ships an option, but it occupies the same slots with HE, ST, and TSS, all of which would also be valued by a survival-mined sci. Sci ships generally have around 4 slots to devote to those powers, so a buffed PH would still be competing with them.

For cruisers, Aux to Dampeners comes close, and it would also make sense to provide immunity to movement debuffs. It has a quick cooldown, and is chain-able with two copies, but shares it's cooldown both with Aux to Battery and Aux to SIF, giving it a high opportunity cost.
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 3,400
# 114
01-30-2013, 12:14 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by devorasx View Post
There is nothing in the way to fit escorts with beams.
What's in the way is actually being able to perform the function of finishing a target.


Quote:
Originally Posted by devorasx View Post
Commenting that escort must use cannons as a reason to justify APO is silly, as there are options to make it easier to fire weapons.

I'd say that suggesting beam arrays for Escorts for team play is even sillier.



I'm sorry but I think you are just grasping at straws at this point.

You pointed to two specific, non-escort ships, that can slot some kind of cannons and then I brought up the fact that both of them can actually slot APO.


Now you've switched to "Escorts can use beams".


I just don't think this conversation will produce anything useful beyond this point, sorry.


Last edited by ussultimatum; 01-30-2013 at 12:20 PM.
Captain
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 14,534
# 115
01-30-2013, 12:14 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by broken1981 View Post
how does it do it too often?
The 5s duration that's actually lasting the full 15s is allowing that aspect to be used too often. Were it just the 5s, 10s w/o, and then whatever recharge/CD exists - DOFF'd or not - it would be a different case.

Flight Speed and Defense are supposed to be 5 of the 15 seconds.

Both last the full 15s.
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,495
# 116
01-30-2013, 12:19 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by broken1981 View Post
how does it do it too often? in the way that its omega 3 x2? or just cd wise? because ive always ran omega 3 and 1. so my omega was always up the same way it is now. but same could be said about et and sci team. only need 1 of thoes now because of doffs as well. reason you only need 2 apd is because if slotting delta in the mix. and even if you did not have a delta or beta the way the timers work you would still have that omega when ready. you get a full cycle of rapid fire with omega, next cycle you dont have an omega, next cycle you can have that oemga.

i dont know how you guys use omega but i use mine when im trying to get my kill. its not for and defense at all inless i really need to break a tractor and i cant click evasives. again as a wep buff. something that tt should be doing. but tt is for defense. thats why devlora says he sees escourts just drifting with omega up going for kills. and yoiu will notice it alot more when people are running psw with after shock doffs.
Omega 3x2 gives 2 commander abilities and frees up a lt commander slot. So in terms of both the Commander and lt commander slot you've upped the time you have max output. While not for you playstyle it also allows more flexibility since it frees up the Boff slots.

Fyi, I fly KDF and use Omega for alpha strikes initially and later for defense or offense as needed. During the Alpha since I stack APs outside of 10km and use APO and engine power boost from Aux2batt the initial 5 second defensive boost should be mostly wasted, but apparently it's not. I don't even use my Tac Captain cooldown reducer ability b/c a single Aux2batt has it covered.

For me I guess the issue is how powerful should Doffs be relative to Boffs? In the extreme case of Tech Doffs w/Aux2Batt you can nearly double your effective Boff station output.

For hybrid style ships doubling APO and other stations allows for high DPS uptime w/a single Tac Boff. This frees other stations up for repairs and CC/Debuffs.

Lets assume an equally spec'd movement/hull/shield ship setup w/the exception of Boff layout. If ship 1 had Commander Tac and Lt Commander Tac and ship 2 had Commander Tac and univeral. Lets assume both ships could effectively double their Boff powers, at this point wouldn't you want anything other than Tac in the Lt Commander since you can be very productive out of the single Commander Boff w/a high uptime?
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 597
# 117
01-30-2013, 12:23 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by inktomi19 View Post
It's because every ship is screwed if it gets immobilized -- everyone not only loses their defense from speed, but is given a negative defense rating. Immobilizing your enemy is one of the biggest damage buffs their is.

If you immobilize a sci ship, the extra damage is compounded by the fact that so many sci abilities are limited to the front arc.
are we talking pugs here or what? i dont need to use omega on my escourt if im immobilized.
i can use my evasives. i have sci healers. i have another escourt to push people off of me. i have tt. i can even burn he or tss and disto my shields. a sci ship can use psw or tbr. or the sci ship can just tank a whole team. ive seen recluses do this many, many times. if your using omega to break holds clearly your doing it very wrong. hit a rapid fire with an omega and look at the buff to dps ur getting. hit tt with rapid fire and see how poor it looks.

to say x2 omegs on every escourt is because of tb pet spam really does not know wtf they are talking about. use of ph? really? thats just death and its not going to help out a team mate. standered lay out of any escourt is x2 omegas and epts with he and tss. is the days of tb pet spam people slotted ph to break tb pets and hope they can get by with ph 1 he 2 or ph 1 tss 2
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 597
# 118
01-30-2013, 12:26 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by virusdancer View Post
The 5s duration that's actually lasting the full 15s is allowing that aspect to be used too often. Were it just the 5s, 10s w/o, and then whatever recharge/CD exists - DOFF'd or not - it would be a different case.

Flight Speed and Defense are supposed to be 5 of the 15 seconds.

Both last the full 15s.
and this i can agree with, but the op has a problem with omega itself and not what its doing extra. hes made at doffs that reduce the cd. i clearly pointed out sci team and et can be reduced as well and are just as effective if not more.
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 597
# 119
01-30-2013, 12:31 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by p2wsucks View Post
snip
sorry dont want to quote your whole post. this is directed at you. while i understand that the doffs are aweome and let you pump out more fire power, i can still comaire sci team doffs and et doffs. with just thoes alone sci's and engy players have also freed up slots to pump out way more healing then they used too. later of if anyone wants i can list thoes numbers of how much more healing alone can be pumped out due to cd doffs.

but again clearly if you see nothing wrong in sci team and et doffs then nothing is wrong either with ap doffs.
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,495
# 120
01-30-2013, 12:32 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by broken1981 View Post
and this i can agree with, but the op has a problem with omega itself and not what its doing extra. hes made at doffs that reduce the cd. i clearly pointed out sci team and et can be reduced as well and are just as effective if not more.
To be fair, I was the one not happy w/Doff reducing cooldowns (not just for APO, but across the board). The other poster didn't like the number of abilities APO gives.
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