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Empire Veteran
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,127
# 21
01-30-2013, 12:08 PM
http://www.chakoteya.net/ds9/546.htm

Two instances where starship characters recognize that escorts are no match for a full fledged battleship/cruiser:

From DS9 Episode "Valiant"

[Valiant Mess hall]

SHEPARD: Attention on deck!
WATTERS: Stand at ease. It's been a long eight months. A lot of hard work, a lot of sacrifice. Now we've accomplished our mission. We found the battleship and obtained a complete scan without being detected, and we're free to go home. But that ship out there is a direct threat to every Federation outpost and colony within fifty light years. That ship must be destroyed. It can be destroyed. Commander?
FARRIS: We've found a flaw in the design of their antimatter storage system. The primary support braces are made of viterium.
WATTERS: It's a very strong, very resilient metal alloy which just happens to become extremely unstable when exposed to delta radiation.
FARRIS: A single torpedo rigged with a radiogenic warhead could reduce those braces to the consistency of wet pasta.
WATTERS: And as a result, the entire antimatter storage system would tear itself apart. Commander Nog, you don't seem convinced.
NOG: Well, sir, in order to rig a torpedo to yield a delta radiation burst I'll have to remove most of the guidance systems. We'll have to target it manually.
FARRIS: We've trained for that possibility. It shouldn't be a problem.
NOG: We'll also have to get very close to the target.
WATTERS: How close?
NOG: Within three hundred metres.
WATTERS: It's dangerous, there's no disputing that. And no one would think any less of us if we just turn around and go home. But that means that some other ship with some other crew would be asked to finish the job that we started. I think we can do it. I think we should do it.
JAKE: Can I say something?
FARRIS: You are not a member of this crew.
WATTERS: Let him speak.
JAKE: You all probably know who my father is. Benjamin Sisko. So you know I'm not exaggerating when I say that he's considered to be one of the best combat officers in the fleet. And I'm telling you right now that even with the entire crew of the Defiant with him, my father would never try to pull off something like this. And if he can't do it, it can't be done.
WATTERS: We're Red Squad and we can do anything.
(And the room cheers.)
ALL: Red Squad! Red Squad! Red Squad! Red Squad! Red Squad! Red Squad! Red Squad! Red Squad! Red Squad! Red Squad! Red Squad! Red Squad! Red Squad! Red Squad! Red Squad! Red Squad! Red Squad! Red Squad! Red Squad! Red Squad!

[Valiant Engine room]

(Nog is working on the torpedo.)
JAKE: This is suicide.
NOG: No, it's not.
JAKE: Nog, listen to me. We're in way over our heads here. Now someone told me that ship out there is twice the size of a Galaxy class starship and three times as strong.
NOG: That's accurate.
JAKE: And you really think we can go up against a ship like that?
NOG: I think that Captain Watters

[Valiant Ready room]

NOG [on monitor] Knows what he's doing.
JAKE [on monitor]: Oh, really? Well, did you know that Watters has been taking cordafin stimulants for the past two months?
NOG [on monitor]: Where did you hear that?
JAKE [on monitor]: Dorian told me.
NOG [on monitor]: You were ordered to stay away from her!
JAKE [on monitor]: Will you forget about obeying orders for just a minute!
WATTERS: Watters to Shepard. Please report to my Ready room, Lieutenant.
NOG [on monitor]: That's not the way we do things in Starfleet.
(Watters turns off the monitor.)

[Valiant Engine room]

JAKE: I can't believe you're buying everything that Watters is selling.
NOG: He's not selling anything. He's reminding us of our duty.
JAKE: I feel like I'm having a conversation with one of the bulkheads.
NOG: You don't understand because you've never put on one of these uniforms. You don't know anything about sacrifice or honour or duty or any of the things that make up a soldier's life. I'm part of something larger than myself. All you care about is you.
JAKE: That's right. All I care about is Jake Sisko and whether or not he's going to be killed by a bunch of delusional fanatics looking for martyrdom.
NOG: Get out.
JAKE: I don't even know who you are anymore.
NOG: I'm the Chief Engineer of the starship Valiant.
JAKE: I'll have them put that on your tombstone.


http://www.imsdb.com/scripts/Star-Trek-Generations.html
From Star Trek: Generations

PICARD'S COM VOICE
Klingon vessel. We know what
you're doing, and we will destroy
any probe launched toward the
Veridian star.

Soran's expression darkens.

B'ETOR
What do we do?

Soran checks his watch.

SORAN
There's no time for this.
Eliminate them.

B'ETOR
(reacts)
That is a Galaxy class Starship.
We are no match for them.


Soran thinks for a moment... then he gets an idea. He
pulls Geordi's VISOR out of a pocket. He eyes it with
intent.

SORAN
I think it's time we gave Mister
La Forge his sight back.



As you see, there is ample basis within the shows and movies for assuming that cruisers out DPS raiders/escorts like BOP's and the defiant.
And I do believe CBS would want a Star Trek game to reflect this difference in terms of the inherent weapons each class has.
=^= Starfleet Code Red Message =^= Starfleet intelligence's central network was compromised by an insidious ARC virus. All captains are to avoid contact with the ARC until we can ascertain how dangerous it is. All ships remain on high alert!

Last edited by knuhteb5; 01-30-2013 at 12:10 PM.
Empire Veteran
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,127
# 22
01-30-2013, 12:16 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by moronwmachinegun View Post
Can you not nerf an Escort's damage with Tractor Beam Repulsors? Pop an aux battery or red matter capacitor just before TBR and watch that escort go ziiiiing. Push him out of his butter zone, and laugh as his alpha strike ping-pings on your shields like pea-sized hail. If he's running APO, you should still be able to tank through his alpha with a tac team and resistance boosts from EPtS and A2S.

What kind of damage numbers are you seeing? My non-fleet Engineer Excelsior can pull ~5k DPS in a HulkSmash setup, with all the buffs tied to an idiot-bar. If I spent the effort to actually space out EPtW, Weapons Battery, and Aux 2 Batt properly, and get better gear I could probably go higher. It's an alt toon I only play with my son, so I don't bother.

Some in my fleet have cruisers that can hit 10k+ DPS. If you're not hitting at least 5k, time to spruce up your build.
Agreed that there are ways around the higher escorts dps in pvp such as the tract beam repulsor push away boosted by red matter cap. However, you're missing the point of my thread. I'm asking how is it that the base damage of an escort is higher than a cruiser when cruisers on the shows have larger beam arrays that do more base damage than the arrays on escorts.
=^= Starfleet Code Red Message =^= Starfleet intelligence's central network was compromised by an insidious ARC virus. All captains are to avoid contact with the ARC until we can ascertain how dangerous it is. All ships remain on high alert!
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 657
# 23
01-30-2013, 12:24 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by knuhteb5 View Post
I'm asking how is it that the base damage of an escort is higher than a cruiser when cruisers on the shows have larger beam arrays that do more base damage than the arrays on escorts.
So by that argument, a cannon should do more damage than a small chunk of C4, because a cannonball is bigger, right? For that matter, a cannonball is bigger than most tank rounds. I guess militaries around the world made a mistake by switching away from cannons, right?

Again, I'm on a cell phone, so I cannot type long replies or do fancy things with quotes. To address your "canon on screen references to cruisers pwn face" statements, the first instance with Nog was referring to the fact that they were going up against a DREADNOUGHT, and the second was a ship TWO CENTURIES old going up against a modern starship. In both cases, they were completely outclassed.

In STO, dreadnoughts are difficult to kill solo, requiring several minutes to destroy. Science vessels are best at killing them, since they have abilities to strip shields, drain power levels, hold them in place, etc. Escorts aren't as effective at killing them without the assistance of a science vessel. As for the BOP vs Galaxy argument, the particular model of BOP shown in Generations is the basic T1 or T2 variant shown in STO. Higher tiers have newer, stronger versions of BOPs.
Lieutenant
Join Date: Nov 2012
Posts: 75
# 24
01-30-2013, 12:24 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by thratch1 View Post
While a pulsed cannon shot is like whacking something with a hammer, a continuous beam would be like hitting an object with the same force as the cannon, but then continually applying that same amount of force. Although, really, this analogy is flawed to begin with since there's not actually a kinetic component to energy damage.

It's really more about the heat energy that would be applied, which would be dissipated much more quickly with pulsed shots than a beam.

I think a more accurate analogy would be the difference between flicking lit matches at someone's face, and holding a lit match under someone's nose.
Heat energy dissipates very very slowly in space. Secondly, it has nothing to do with heat damage and more to do with the constriants of massive power consumption relative to the xyz area that has to be powered.

Think of it this way: Which would be more powerful - a ship with a massive warp core, powering a few holodecks, a botanical room, hundreds of private quarters, a bar, and many many more ship areas as well as shields, deflector and weapons. Or a ship with a massive warp core and nothing but guns and a few bulkheads strapped to it.
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Posts: 1,657
# 25
01-30-2013, 12:25 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by knuhteb5 View Post
Yes, I know it's an intentional design decision, but regardless, it does matter what happened on screen. If it didn't matter, why would Cryptic justify lock boxes by claiming CBS wanted to limit the number of jem'hadar attack ships, ferengi D'koras, and cardassian galors? Why would Cryptic be against adding in a tier 5 connie because they say CBS is opposed to it?
Because CBS has veto power over every substantive decision in the game. They have to have CBS's approval to put ANY ship in. They want to put a T5 Connie in; CBS doesn't let them, so far. CBS wants to limit the number of Jem'hadar attack ships, not Cryptic; Cryptic floated the idea of limiting the number of such ships by putting them in the lockboxes, and CBS agreed.

It's not a pose, it's the whole honest truth; CBS really does exercise that level of control over the game. When the Nebula was introduced, supposedly CBS pulled the plug on the initial release of it with 24 hours of when it was scheduled to launch. It delayed a patch while Cryptic pulled that ship out, after telling people it was coming. Caused a huge ruckus, but CBS wasn't happy with something about it.

But that's not why Cruisers do less damage than Escorts. The reason Cruisers do less damage than Escorts is that if they didn't, hardly anybody would fly Escorts. Why should they? Cruisers would be better at both DPS AND Tanking.

If you want a mix of ships in the game, they have to be better at different things. This game would be incredibly boring if all you saw all day long was the exact same ship going by, with no difference except the windows and the paint.

Cruisers being best at everything works for a TV show, where only one ship matters; it doesn't work for a multiplayer game, where World of Cruisers would just look boring.
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Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 955
# 26
01-30-2013, 12:36 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by knuhteb5 View Post
(quote)
The problem with your example is that, in the case of the Valiant, given Nog's confirmation, the ship they were fighting had three times the "strength" of a Galaxy-class ship. Whether this means hull strength, weapons strength, or both is up for debate, but the takeaway is that this ship supposedly outclassed the Galaxy by a huge margin.

In your second example, Worf stated that the B'rel Bird-of-Prey the Duras sisters were flying was an outdated starship that was mostly taken out of service because of its defect. The Defiant, on the other hand, was a much more modern starship by comparison.

Conversely, we have an episode with Gul Dukat complaining to Sisko about the Maquis being in possession of one of the most heavily-armed warships in the sector (the Defiant). You could argue that he was lying since Cardassians seem to be prone to that, but I'd argue that if he were going to lie, he'd just say "our superior Cardassian ships can take care of the matter" and hope that they did. Instead, he put aside his pride to protect his people by enlisting Sisko's help.
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 955
# 27
01-30-2013, 12:45 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by pennyprimrose View Post
Heat energy dissipates very very slowly in space. Secondly, it has nothing to do with heat damage and more to do with the constriants of massive power consumption relative to the xyz area that has to be powered.

Think of it this way: Which would be more powerful - a ship with a massive warp core, powering a few holodecks, a botanical room, hundreds of private quarters, a bar, and many many more ship areas as well as shields, deflector and weapons. Or a ship with a massive warp core and nothing but guns and a few bulkheads strapped to it.
I wasn't really arguing the size of the warp core, but the nature of the weapons. With no kinetic force to pure energy weapons, the only real measure of damage is how much heat energy you can apply to your target, and how quickly. A constant application of heat is much more effective than even a rapid but non-constant application.

The real reason that the Defiant is so much more powerful than cruisers is the Revolver/Katana rule -- cannons are cooler than beams, and so they're just better, regardless of any actual basis in reality.

This is coming from someone who loves the Defiant, obviously. I've been flying one almost exclusively for over two years. The pulsed cannons just aren't the most efficient use of energy, realistically.
Empire Veteran
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,127
# 28
01-30-2013, 12:48 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by syberghost View Post
Because CBS has veto power over every substantive decision in the game. They have to have CBS's approval to put ANY ship in. They want to put a T5 Connie in; CBS doesn't let them, so far. CBS wants to limit the number of Jem'hadar attack ships, not Cryptic; Cryptic floated the idea of limiting the number of such ships by putting them in the lockboxes, and CBS agreed.

It's not a pose, it's the whole honest truth; CBS really does exercise that level of control over the game. When the Nebula was introduced, supposedly CBS pulled the plug on the initial release of it with 24 hours of when it was scheduled to launch. It delayed a patch while Cryptic pulled that ship out, after telling people it was coming. Caused a huge ruckus, but CBS wasn't happy with something about it.

But that's not why Cruisers do less damage than Escorts. The reason Cruisers do less damage than Escorts is that if they didn't, hardly anybody would fly Escorts. Why should they? Cruisers would be better at both DPS AND Tanking.

If you want a mix of ships in the game, they have to be better at different things. This game would be incredibly boring if all you saw all day long was the exact same ship going by, with no difference except the windows and the paint.

Cruisers being best at everything works for a TV show, where only one ship matters; it doesn't work for a multiplayer game, where World of Cruisers would just look boring.
If by better at different things, you mean that you only need 5 escorts to play elite STF's, I see what you mean. The game is incredibly boring, as is, because STF play favors going for max dps; hence, one of the reasons for me starting this thread because cruisers aren't as favored as escorts in STF's. That a cruiser can out-tank an escort is uniquely different but is plainly irrelevant since escorts don't even need to depend on cruisers anymore in STF's. How do you address this issue because I have seen you do it yet? Leviathan in the discussion section at least is being a little more realistic by suggesting that borg ships should have special attacks that only cruisers can survive. This would help reinforce the idea that raiders/escorts support and cruisers are still needed to soak up the hardest hits.

Quote:
Originally Posted by thratch1 View Post
I wasn't really arguing the size of the warp core, but the nature of the weapons. With no kinetic force to pure energy weapons, the only real measure of damage is how much heat energy you can apply to your target, and how quickly. A constant application of heat is much more effective than even a rapid but non-constant application.

The real reason that the Defiant is so much more powerful than cruisers is the Revolver/Katana rule -- cannons are cooler than beams, and so they're just better, regardless of any actual basis in reality.

This is coming from someone who loves the Defiant, obviously. I've been flying one almost exclusively for over two years. The pulsed cannons just aren't the most efficient use of energy, realistically.
LOLZZZ!!! So that is the rule that justifies the decision to make escorts have higher dps than cruisers!? It's all so clear now!!! ^_^

Quote:
Originally Posted by thratch1 View Post
The problem with your example is that, in the case of the Valiant, given Nog's confirmation, the ship they were fighting had three times the "strength" of a Galaxy-class ship. Whether this means hull strength, weapons strength, or both is up for debate, but the takeaway is that this ship supposedly outclassed the Galaxy by a huge margin.

In your second example, Worf stated that the B'rel Bird-of-Prey the Duras sisters were flying was an outdated starship that was mostly taken out of service because of its defect. The Defiant, on the other hand, was a much more modern starship by comparison.

Conversely, we have an episode with Gul Dukat complaining to Sisko about the Maquis being in possession of one of the most heavily-armed warships in the sector (the Defiant). You could argue that he was lying since Cardassians seem to be prone to that, but I'd argue that if he were going to lie, he'd just say "our superior Cardassian ships can take care of the matter" and hope that they did. Instead, he put aside his pride to protect his people by enlisting Sisko's help.
Granted, the b'rel from Generations was a fail of prey, so that wasn't the best example. However, the jemy battleship dreadnought isn't that bad of an example, and it still stands. The odyssey, probably about as powerful in terms of hull and weapons power as that jemy battleship, should be able to easily outclass the defiant/Kling tier 5 escorts in terms of dps.
=^= Starfleet Code Red Message =^= Starfleet intelligence's central network was compromised by an insidious ARC virus. All captains are to avoid contact with the ARC until we can ascertain how dangerous it is. All ships remain on high alert!

Last edited by knuhteb5; 01-30-2013 at 12:54 PM.
Captain
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 1,738
# 29
01-30-2013, 12:55 PM
Cruisers as a whole are severly underpowered in DPS

PVE is a DPS game period

There is no need for a tank , I tank quite well in my Escort and deal 3x as much DPS as a cruiser does. I also heal quite well so much in fact i usually send Heals to cruisers

PvP is a seperate issue with its own problems

In order to compete cruisers in general need a DPS increase there are many ways to do it , Escorts arnt overpowered Cruisers are just underpowered.

With the slow turn rate there is no reason dps from a cruiser should not equal a escort except for escort captions who think they should have a superior firepower when in lore and history and plain common sense they should have MUCH less.

My Engineer flys the Fleet excelsior it has 4 weapon consoles and does really good DPS it is a welcome part of the fleet STF team any time i take it out , The Galaxy Class however is a liability to the team and not wanted on a team because its DPS is so poor it cant be a positive member of the team. 2 weapons consoles along with the worst bridge officer layout seal its fate when in fact it is a much newer better armed ship then 2 Excelsiors were .
STO Devs needs to watch a few episodes of star trek i sopose
Jellico....Engineer.....Stargazer KDF Tac
Saphire.. Science.....Ko'el Rom Kdf Tac
Leva........Tactical.....Mailu KDF Sci

JJ-Verse will never be Canon or considered Lore...It will always be JJ-Verse
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Posts: 1,127
# 30
01-30-2013, 01:00 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by jellico1 View Post
Cruisers as a whole are severly underpowered in DPS

PVE is a DPS game period

There is no need for a tank , I tank quite well in my Escort and deal 3x as much DPS as a cruiser does. I also heal quite well so much in fact i usually send Heals to cruisers

PvP is a seperate issue with its own problems

In order to compete cruisers in general need a DPS increase there are many ways to do it , Escorts arnt overpowered Cruisers are just underpowered.

With the slow turn rate there is no reason dps from a cruiser should not equal a escort except for escort captions who think they should have a superior firepower when in lore and history and plain common sense they should have MUCH less.

My Engineer flys the Fleet excelsior it has 4 weapon consoles and does really good DPS it is a welcome part of the fleet STF team any time i take it out , The Galaxy Class however is a liability to the team and not wanted on a team because its DPS is so poor it cant be a positive member of the team. 2 weapons consoles along with the worst bridge officer layout seal its fate when in fact it is a much newer better armed ship then 2 Excelsiors were .
STO Devs needs to watch a few episodes of star trek i sopose
This response in a nutshell is the most reasonable response I've seen on here yet and spot on. In PVE, cruisers have been rendered obsolete and in PVP, cruisers have slower turn-rates than escorts, yet they have worse dps. I'm glad even escort captains like yourself recognize this gross inequity and immersion breaker.
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