Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 597
# 131
01-30-2013, 01:14 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by thegrimcorsair View Post
Seems reasonable to me. Right now Omega buffs survivability, maneuverability, damage, and grants immunity to momevement debuffs for its full 15 sec duration. It really seems odd to me for a self-targeted Tactical power to be a great offensive tool and nearly as great defensive tool. I mean, how often do people consider dropping AP: D3 on to their Escort instead?

While we're at it, maybe we can get Tactical Team's Tactical debuff clear window cut in half, that is, from 10 seconds to 5 seconds.
i say let my ship have apd3 and apo3 that would be so op but fun. just let me have it for 1 day. hahahaha

yes it is reasonable, omega clearly does way to much, just like tt. but you cant hate on a doff that can reduce cd to global. no matter what ill always have x2 omegas on my ship. hate the power not the doff. since every ship has a free slot now, everyone just got an extra power. and well with aux2bat builds they get even more global cds with extra power slots. i always thought omega should be purely defense related. tt should be the super buff.
Empire Veteran
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 6,763
# 132
01-30-2013, 01:19 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by broken1981 View Post
i think its stupid too but we are stuck cd doffs. aux2bat is the worse doff there is tho. thats every cd on every bo. and if you do it right thats 125 subsystem power in every system but aux. and you can get that aux back very fast
no were does it make the best escorts better, the best healer boats better or the best sci builds better. ships that are good at using it are basically irreverent toys, fun toys, but irreverent. tech doffs are a non issue


Quote:
Originally Posted by redricky View Post
Clearly everybody thinks of something different when they hear the term "PvP balance." I'll just scattergun it I guess, /ramble on.

Weapon type balance

DHCs are teh awesome, DCs are inferior. Beams don't hurt like we wish they would.

We can talk about firing cycle and drain, but only a portion of the population can follow that conversation. I like what (I think) DDIS proposed for arrays which was lop a second off the pew, keep dps the same, allowing for 1 more second of recharge per firing cycle. Front load it a bit more, as it were. I'm assuming this is too nuanced a change since explaining it in patch notes would require explaining how firing cycles work.
with beam arrays, i envision 4 beams fireing at the same speed they fire with FAW, 4 shots per cycle. this would simply raise their dps, make them better when used with DEM and glider, and make thier damage more noticeable. i cant remember the last time i attacked a lone cruiser with an escort and had any fear of his beam arrays, that is not how it should be. say you have a fed cruiser and you want to make it as heavy a hitter as possible, silly of course, it sucks at this no mater how maxed out you make it. well with that change it would actually suck less, and be closer to the danger level of a KDF cruiser. theres no reason fed cruisers should be helpless at dealing damage wile kdf cruisers are not, thats not balanced. buffed beam arrays would make it more balanced, different but balanced. but of course people think any beam buff will make this cruisers on line, this game would already be kdf cruisers on line if that was the case.

oh, do the same on DBBs

single cannons should be made heavy cannons, like the borg tac cube, gates, and cure assimilated ships have. these are beam array alternatives, and should be considered when a beam array buff is is considered. the assest already exists, this is already an in game weapon, let players use it!


Quote:
Originally Posted by redricky View Post
DHCs' innate CRTD bonus defies logic. So let's work with that. Give arrays an Acc bonus. Acc overflow and the ability to run more crit modifiers will follow. Also reduce the range penalty to damage for arrays.


Ship type balance

Escorts produce strings of misses due to the defense mechanic

Give arrays an Acc bonus. Make it harder for the escort to get to the level of complete avoidance against a beam boat.

Escorts can use distance defensively in ways other ships can't due to their turn, speed, and inertia combined with the range penalty to damage

Also reduce the range penalty to damage for arrays. There should still be some danger at 9.9 km.

"But won't that buff beamscort pilots?"
Yes, but it won't wipe away the shame of being one.
oh, thats gold. not to mention a beams escort currently is going to be dealing about 10% more damage with beams then a fleet excelsior, with about half the tanking potential.

the DHC should keep the crtD mod wile the DC gets a CrtH mod. and a higher fireing arc. but, even if you could keep DCs in arc well, their damage is so gradual that the enemy is never in any danger of his shields getting pierced in an instent. they can out distribute the damage they receave, so you have to shoot down thier entire shields befor theres any hull exposure. and thats the problem with all non DHC weapons. you could significantly buff every other weapon except DHCs, and DHCs would still be king, theres no comparison to the effect of front loaded damage vs damage over time, no mater how strong the damage over time is.

Quote:
Originally Posted by redricky View Post
Captain type balance

Tacs can bring the spike, Sci can make sure the spike hurts more, and Eng can blunt the spike and fix it. Except only to themselves. Currently the best way deal with Eng captains in PvP is to ignore them.

Make RSF and MW castable on allies. Give both automatic shield redistribution for the first 5 seconds.
this absolutely has to be done for eng to have an equal use as tacs and scis.


Quote:
Originally Posted by redricky View Post
Faction balance

Is Leadership available KDF side?
nope, just 1 from marrading. the leadership, now that it works, should maybe not stack

Quote:
Originally Posted by redricky View Post
New player/vet balance

Rep gear and passives make it even more difficult for a new player to compete.

...

New players don't know what they're seeing, much less how to determine what is important.
all new players can do is grind out to full rep befor they can be at a compediitve level. thats all there is too it now. raising the level of entry for pvp is bad.


Quote:
Originally Posted by redricky View Post
Increase the size of the buff bar UI. Under the options menu have a key listing every buff icon. Include a description of what it looks like when a ship uses it. Instead of "OMG hax" or "I suck, back to PvE" someone could check the key and say "Oh, that was the Vesta console shield. No wonder."

Improved (and corrected) tooltips. How else will the new player know that the ability they are using or considering is improved by a certain console? This. Includes. Doffs.

Use load screens for valuable information. If necessary, poll the community regarding what should be included. +1 vote for PvP bootcamp.

End game gear balance

Combat engines have no place in any end game sets. Just throwing this in there cause it bugs me.
combat engines are garbage, you cant have a good build, and an engine power level that is good for a combat engine. if you do, your defense score is terrable, and you will get shot to death and your build will be fail. combat and hyper need to do differnt things, 1 can inatly turn beter, the other can inatly move faster. all engens have a normal power curve would proboly be good, it would lessen insane escort speed thats so importnet for defensive positioning, thats part of why APO is to good
gateway links-->Norvo Tigan, Telis Latto Ruwon, Sochie Heim, Solana Soleus
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 597
# 133
01-30-2013, 01:34 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by dontdrunkimshoot View Post
no were does it make the best escorts better, the best healer boats better or the best sci builds better. ships that are good at using it are basically irreverent toys, fun toys, but irreverent. tech doffs are a non issue



it does in a sence make an escourt better, 125 to engines, sheilds, lower dps drains. omega 3 ,rapid 2, delta 2,tt2, dpb1

tact set up alone. not to mention he 1 tss 2 at global. i dont need to even list engy lay out because you all know how that goes

yes its a hard build to pull off but can be done. to be honest i dont like it. just need really good mates to help pull it off.

Last edited by broken1981; 01-30-2013 at 01:39 PM.
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,015
# 134
01-30-2013, 01:36 PM
I think the Tech doff hate is overblown.

"You can have APO3, CRF2, and HYT3 or BO3." On what? A BoP. Steamrunner. JHAS. Mobius. For most of those you would be down to a single Sci ability to do that, others would be left with only ET as a hull heal. Too much Tac leads to a crunchy ship with Aux2Batt.

"Ships with different Cmdr/LtCmdr slots can suddenly do more." Yeah. But I don't see Excelsiors replacing every cruiser out there. Because it doesn't make that build OP, it makes it viable. The Jem HEC would be as middling as the Armitage, but it's viable with double A2B.

Quote:
Originally Posted by p2wsucks View Post
Agreed. But, I think they can be adjusted/scaled better. For example, arguably most P2W consoles are ~ the same value as a single Boff ability w/a long cooldown. Using a Boff ability as a measuring stick how effective should 3 purple Doffs be? Or for the ones you can only equip 1 of how effective should they be relative to Boff powers? Imo, it shouldn't be any better than a single Lt Commander Boff ability, so you'd only get say 2-3 like boff abilities out of 5 purple Doffs. Most of the cooldown boff, tech in particular, have the potential to be much better than that currently.
This sounds reasonable, but it's not. You can't compare them straight up.

Let's look at another Doff for a second, the TB drain doff. AFAIK the drain benefits from Flow Capacitors. Are you going to slot those? Do you lose anything else to make it effective?

It's not as simple as "1 or 3 doffs should be as effective as X kind of boff" because that doff may or may not need to be supported further.

Nor is every Boff ability equal. It's been pointed out that nobody is complaining about ST and ET cd doffs in the same way as AP doffs.

Throwing a doff on something like TB which is useful anyway is not the same as doffing for Aux2Batt. Aux2Batt, lest we forget, SUCKS. Nobody used it pre-tech doffs, and nobody would have used it even if it had it been in it's current shared cd family. On its own it wasn't as good as EPTS, and it wouldn't have been as good as Aux2Sif. If you have Tac Team up and you just used Hazards to get free of Warp Plasma then you are out of hull heals.

"You can get around the Aux drain."

That's right, that's how much this ability sucks, you have to compensate for it. Consumables will help every 2 minutes, unless you slot a 4th doff to speed that up. If we're talking BoP and escort then you have 1 device slot left for SFM or deuts. This used to mean you couldn't keep a weapon or engine batt to repair subs, but I guess Leadership has fixed that for at least one faction. For the price of a console slot you could use the Oberth shields/aux one.

There's a real fine line to make Aux2Batt worth it. It involves having exactly one of these two: Cmdr and Lt Eng OR LtC and Lt Eng. These are the only ships that are radically changed in the level of what they can accomplish. Fleet Tor'Kaht? A little too much Tac and not enough Eng, Tac abilities get wasted while Aux2Batt 2 gets used, yuck. Steamrunner? Not enough Eng and too much Tac. Armitage? Not enough Eng. D'Kora? Yes please. Galor? Just right, plus uni options, although it was a mean motor scooter before Tech doffs. Jem HEC? Ooooh yeah.

TLDR

Tech doff comparisons are not apples to apples. One family of hybrid ships benefits disproportionally from them. You have to take 2 copies of a ****ty power. You are taken down to 2 hull heals, one of which is your cleanse and the other conflicts with TT. You have to compensate for Aux drain.

It's just not as simple as throw 3 AP doffs on and do what you're already doing better, or 3 BFI doffs and keep pressing the same button as before, or even slot DEM instead of something else for nade-light. (Official beer of Tac Cruiser captains.)
Empire Veteran
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 6,763
# 135
01-30-2013, 01:45 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by broken1981 View Post
it does in a sence make an escourt better, 125 to engines, sheilds, lower dps drains. omega 3 ,rapid 2, delta 2,tt2, dpb1

tact set up alone. not to mention he 1 tss 2 at global. i dont need to even list engy lay out because you all know how that goes
for 10 seconds maybe. you need 2 copies to get boosted power all the time, and its pretty rare to see 125 across the board once i started paying attention. sometimes theres next to 0 power buff, but thats still secondary to cooldown reduction.

1 copy doesn't put any tac ability to global ether, your better off doubling up because your an escort with a ton of tac stations already and very few eng slots.

on a healer even with just 1 copy you screw up AtS use pretty badly, and for 10 seconds every 30 seconds you have no more then 30 aux when you use EPtA. also it doesn't put ES at its global like 2 copies would, AtB does not effect ES wile its in its 30 second active period, only that 15 second period. you end up saving about 5 seconds, and thats if you hold off on its use just for ES.


you only get advantages that outweigh disadvantages on awkward tweener ships like the vet ship, that needs every thing it can get to compete with the 10/10 and 11/10 true escorts out there, and on kdf battle cruisers. it does make them mighty dangerous, nearly as dangerous as escorts them selves. but the ones AtB works well on don't have APO, and turn very slowly compared to an escort. they can have DEM 3, lots of plasma but without APO its still difficulty to lay tactically and so incredibly easy to escape from, and good RSP coverage. only ET and HE for hull heals, and any HE and TSS is only going to be strong when your aux batts cool down.
gateway links-->Norvo Tigan, Telis Latto Ruwon, Sochie Heim, Solana Soleus
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 597
# 136
01-30-2013, 01:59 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by dontdrunkimshoot View Post
for 10 seconds maybe. you need 2 copies to get boosted power all the time, and its pretty rare to see 125 across the board once i started paying attention. sometimes theres next to 0 power buff, but thats still secondary to cooldown reduction.
i did get it to work on my fleet defaint, tho my cycles were off by about 6 secs. i did not like that. i did like the sheild regen it gave as well as engine power. like i said its not for me and very hard to pull off. ide hate to meet a person that can do it. i have came across you in an aux2bat build. i did like how you used it. i can not pull it off as well as you did. im not even sure if u still use aux2bat. red is correct tho. in all his statements. but doffs are part of pvp. so less hate on them and more idea on how to tweek powers and talk about how to try to avoided stupid doffs in the future. we got sub nuke doffs for space, placate doffs for ground, sub nuke consumables for ground, ss doffs for space. would be nice if the devs could try to avoid crap such as this for now on.
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,474
# 137
01-30-2013, 02:03 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by redricky View Post
I think the Tech doff hate is overblown.

"You can have APO3, CRF2, and HYT3 or BO3." On what? A BoP. Steamrunner. JHAS. Mobius. For most of those you would be down to a single Sci ability to do that, others would be left with only ET as a hull heal. Too much Tac leads to a crunchy ship with Aux2Batt.

"Ships with different Cmdr/LtCmdr slots can suddenly do more." Yeah. But I don't see Excelsiors replacing every cruiser out there. Because it doesn't make that build OP, it makes it viable. The Jem HEC would be as middling as the Armitage, but it's viable with double A2B.



This sounds reasonable, but it's not. You can't compare them straight up.

Let's look at another Doff for a second, the TB drain doff. AFAIK the drain benefits from Flow Capacitors. Are you going to slot those? Do you lose anything else to make it effective?

It's not as simple as "1 or 3 doffs should be as effective as X kind of boff" because that doff may or may not need to be supported further.

Nor is every Boff ability equal. It's been pointed out that nobody is complaining about ST and ET cd doffs in the same way as AP doffs.

Throwing a doff on something like TB which is useful anyway is not the same as doffing for Aux2Batt. Aux2Batt, lest we forget, SUCKS. Nobody used it pre-tech doffs, and nobody would have used it even if it had it been in it's current shared cd family. On its own it wasn't as good as EPTS, and it wouldn't have been as good as Aux2Sif. If you have Tac Team up and you just used Hazards to get free of Warp Plasma then you are out of hull heals.

"You can get around the Aux drain."

That's right, that's how much this ability sucks, you have to compensate for it. Consumables will help every 2 minutes, unless you slot a 4th doff to speed that up. If we're talking BoP and escort then you have 1 device slot left for SFM or deuts. This used to mean you couldn't keep a weapon or engine batt to repair subs, but I guess Leadership has fixed that for at least one faction. For the price of a console slot you could use the Oberth shields/aux one.

There's a real fine line to make Aux2Batt worth it. It involves having exactly one of these two: Cmdr and Lt Eng OR LtC and Lt Eng. These are the only ships that are radically changed in the level of what they can accomplish. Fleet Tor'Kaht? A little too much Tac and not enough Eng, Tac abilities get wasted while Aux2Batt 2 gets used, yuck. Steamrunner? Not enough Eng and too much Tac. Armitage? Not enough Eng. D'Kora? Yes please. Galor? Just right, plus uni options, although it was a mean motor scooter before Tech doffs. Jem HEC? Ooooh yeah.

TLDR

Tech doff comparisons are not apples to apples. One family of hybrid ships benefits disproportionally from them. You have to take 2 copies of a ****ty power. You are taken down to 2 hull heals, one of which is your cleanse and the other conflicts with TT. You have to compensate for Aux drain.

It's just not as simple as throw 3 AP doffs on and do what you're already doing better, or 3 BFI doffs and keep pressing the same button as before, or even slot DEM instead of something else for nade-light. (Official beer of Tac Cruiser captains.)
I think you're selling single copy Aux2batt builds short in their potential effectiveness. I've used them on Fleet Torkaht and Vet ship builds. Multiply a skill's cooldown by .7 and see how close it is to that skills global cooldown (for skills w/45 second cooldown it's 31.5 seconds and most of those have a 30 second global a close to perfect fit). For those that aren't how many of them can have aux2batt cycle 2 times during that period, eg RSP/DEM?

These builds can be run w/a Lt Eng and Ens Eng in theory, 1 for the Aux2batt and 1 EPTS1 and 1 EPTA1. In addion to the Boff cooldowns the ship would end up w/high power to weapons, shields and engines.

But, even setting aside AP doffs and Tech doffs there are issues. Photonic Doffs can get global PSW3 w/just two (not to mention the broken console timer reductions) for me this is too much since it's a commander level ability. At least the Team Doffs only effect Lt Commander tops.

I agree that not all Boff powers are equal. But, how can one hope to balance them when they can be twice as effective depending on the Doffs, or many Boffs can be twice as effective based on Doffs?
Empire Veteran
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 6,763
# 138
01-30-2013, 02:08 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by broken1981 View Post
i did get it to work on my fleet defaint, tho my cycles were off by about 6 secs. i did not like that. i did like the sheild regen it gave as well as engine power. like i said its not for me and very hard to pull off. ide hate to meet a person that can do it. i have came across you in an aux2bat build. i did like how you used it. i can not pull it off as well as you did. im not even sure if u still use aux2bat. red is correct tho. in all his statements. but doffs are part of pvp. so less hate on them and more idea on how to tweek powers and talk about how to try to avoided stupid doffs in the future. we got sub nuke doffs for space, placate doffs for ground, sub nuke consumables for ground, ss doffs for space. would be nice if the devs could try to avoid crap such as this for now on.
yep, i agree with everything ricky said. i chose to use 2 copies of it, im simply not able to micro enough to use 1 copy to its potential. 2 is sorta easy mode, just have it cycling along with my EPtS/A on a keybind. but you always have bad aux, its quite the balancing act to put something together that will still have the minimal amount of survivability needed. and thats only on ships with a tactical focus that before was a complete joke. they are now just competitive.
gateway links-->Norvo Tigan, Telis Latto Ruwon, Sochie Heim, Solana Soleus
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 597
# 139
01-30-2013, 02:14 PM
ahh ok drunk, i understand it a bit more. need to run 2 copies. so really that leaves out like red said, bug ship and steam runner. cant see it for a healer, not really for a sci. better have a good healer with you for these doffs(that much i knew) it seems to have more draw backs then anything else.
Empire Veteran
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 6,763
# 140
01-30-2013, 02:41 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by broken1981 View Post
ahh ok drunk, i understand it a bit more. need to run 2 copies. so really that leaves out like red said, bug ship and steam runner. cant see it for a healer, not really for a sci. better have a good healer with you for these doffs(that much i knew) it seems to have more draw backs then anything else.
as soon as i started playing with my AtB, i feared it was way overpowered and a nerf was imminent. but the more i tried to thery craft builds with it, the more limited in its use i found it to be. on paper it looks absurdly good, but no sci/sci is going to be any good with no aux 30% of the time, it on the same system cooldown as the best hull heal and kills your aux bassed healing 30% of the time, there really is no place for it outside of tactical builds applied to cruisers and some of these new destroyers, and they need all the help they can get to complete
gateway links-->Norvo Tigan, Telis Latto Ruwon, Sochie Heim, Solana Soleus
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is Off
HTML code is Off


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 05:33 PM.