Lt. Commander
Join Date: Jan 2013
Posts: 141
# 141
01-30-2013, 03:14 PM
Originally Posted by broken1981 View Post
can you quote me on it? cause ide love to see that. i have said that i always had x2 omegas on a ship. i said its not used for breaking tractors. when tb pets was all you saw in pvp i would slot a ph. im under the impression that the op is blaming a doff for seeing x2 omegas. i said its always been like that. i gave examples of people with et and sci team doffs. so a straight out attack on omega doffs itself is not a valid point. but i am not ignoring the subject of omega having a longer up time on key aspects in the power itself. its not meant to do that.
I'm sorry, I had you confused with another poster. ussultimatum had been arguing that APO was required for escorts because they had unique mobility needs, that was the original context in which APO was brought up, and that was what my post to which you were replying was about.

I think doffs in general need a balance pass, but the reason people complained about APO in the first place was that it allows escorts to be much better at self preservation than other ship types.

When my engineer is in a cruiser, they have basically the same engineering powers for self preservation that they do in an escort. The cruiser picks up a copy of Aux to SIF 3 which I could use on myself, if I'm playing it in a healing spec. But if I need to escape movement debuffs, the cruiser starts off worse than the escort since it has a poorer speed multiplier -- and if I'm even able to power out of them the cruiser's turn rate is so low that it get's dropped to 0 and I'm stuck flying away in a straight line unable to turn. If I'm not playing an Excelsior, I don't even have the possibility of turning with my movement debuffed.

Same character in an escort picks up two copies of APO in addition to much more efficient use of engine power. Popping a battery and evasive in the escort is usually enough to get me moving and give me a reasonable turn rate, and since the two copies of APO cover so much time, I almost always have time for the batteries and evasive to cool down.

So with the same character in a ship which should in theory be tankier, I am much more likely to suffer a negative defense, and much more likely to be stuck while enemy escorts pull to a dead stop behind me and batter down one shield facing.
not to clear on why you would bring up epts and tss trying to say in my logic.......inless your trying to link it to what i was saying about tt being op...? not to clear on what your trying to say to me.
It's because you said you survived being immobilized because your team was covering you rather than because of APO.

APO is a massive buff to survivability because of the mobility aspect of it. I can't think of any other case where one ship type has access to a defense that the others don't -- where one ship type is self-sufficient where the others aren't.

ok i think i understand now. are you saying this because of my ph comment? of so thoes were the days you used omega and still thoes stupid tb pets locked you back up. so omega, ph, omega, ph. which clearly shows that omega is an attack power. sure you can break holds, but really its ment to keep dhc on target as well as buffing dhc for that alpha. that way you cant tb me in place, tbr or psw. not omfg i got 5 people on me and 1 guy is using tb!!!!!
I think maybe you're not conscious of how much the omega is covering you. I know it's used for the DPS, but while it's up you have defense near 100% (less if it gets fixed, but it's still likely to be 50%+ if you aren't at a stop). If you get stopped, your defense is likely to drop to a little below 0%. In that respect, it's one of the most powerful defensive buffs in the game, since it's what allows you to speed tank.

In my escort I don't really pop omega to tank, but I do save other powers to cover the gaps when it's not up. If I'm goofing around with a 'DPS' cruiser (I know it's an oxymoron) then if I have a copy of omega, it's definitely more of panic button just because I have few other options to avoid that defense penalty.

In non-escorts, the need for mobility isn't so much to keep their defense astronomical, but just to prevent it from going negative. That's why I'm less interested in nerfing APO than in allowing other ways to maintain mobility in the science and engineering trees. PH and A2D both kinda sorta do what APO does defensively, but neither is as effective, and both come with higher opportunity costs (like you say, APO is worth using just for the damage).

Last edited by inktomi19; 01-30-2013 at 03:24 PM.
Join Date: Nov 2012
Posts: 585
# 142
01-30-2013, 03:16 PM
Originally Posted by dontdrunkimshoot View Post
as soon as i started playing with my AtB, i feared it was way overpowered and a nerf was imminent. but the more i tried to thery craft builds with it, the more limited in its use i found it to be. on paper it looks absurdly good, but no sci/sci is going to be any good with no aux 30% of the time, it on the same system cooldown as the best hull heal and kills your aux bassed healing 30% of the time, there really is no place for it outside of tactical builds applied to cruisers and some of these new destroyers, and they need all the help they can get to complete
One thing I've noticed is that if you're using 2 Aux2Bat as a keybind that you're repeatedly hitting so it pops at the earliest opportunity, every other rotation it doesn't drain Aux and provide a power boost. Yes, the boost from firing at 5 Aux isn't much, but it does exist.

What's happening is you get the cooldown reduction across the board for firing the power, but no power boost and no Aux nerf.
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 461
# 143
01-30-2013, 03:58 PM
Feline Instincts/Predatory Instincts (Caitian/Feresian ground passive).

Jump height can be used to exploit pathing mistakes on Shanty Town to access areas where other players cannot follow and to directly cross obstacles that should be impassible - not by jumping over them, but by hopping /up/ them jumping on microscopic ledges. This is compounded by the addition of inexplicable invisible walls to Shanty Town, which make the map harder for non-Caitians to navigate, but do nothing to stop Caitians from exploiting the pathing problems in the map. Even if it were not for this, jump height would be a powerful ability: you can evade most of the damage from engineer mines and bombs by jumping over them, jump to evade the damage from a tactical officer's grenade (even if you are rooted), and easily access elevated areas on other maps that other characters would have difficulty reaching. There is at least one exploitable spot on Assimilated Cruiser where you can get into the ceiling and shoot down at players without them being able to shoot you back.

+10 Perception and +10% exploit damage (or +5 Perception, +10% exploit, and +5% melee damage, for Feresians) would make this passive as good as other PvP viable ground passives, even without the dodge bonus or jump height. Especially since one can stack this with other passives that boost exploit damage.

+10% dodge, without the Jump Height, Perception, and Exploit Damage, would still be the best passive in the game.

The combination of these three passives into one makes Caitians overpowered, to the point that anyone who rolls anything but a Caitian for ground pvp does so, not because they have an interesting idea for a build, but because they can't stand the way caitians look. Literally the only reason not to make a Caitian is because you don't want to look like a cat. I would rather have Feline/Predatory Instincts than any other two, and most other three, passives in the game.

Solution possibilities:

1: Either remove the jump height bonus, at least from pvp or figure out a way to keep it from being exploited to path over or into impassible terrain.
2: The perception, exploit, and melee damage boosts are fine by themselves, but overpowered in combination with the dodge chance and jump height. Break them off into a second, optional, race-specific passive.
3: Either break the dodge chance away from the jump height into a third passive (again, note that it would STILL be the best passive in the game even in isolation), or reduce it considerably. +2% would be sufficient to make it a beneficial addition, and +5% would make it still a pay to win passive, but be less overpowered.


Pounce (Caitian/Feresian Ground Active)

As if the above wasn't bad enough, Caitians and Feresians also enjoy the unqualified best Active power in the game. Pounce is problematic for a number of reasons:

1: It is an Exploit attack. This means that players can carry two Expose weapons (the favored combination being the Omega gun and a pulsewave) and still Exploit their own Exposes. No other race has this level of tactical flexibility, and it confers something like a 25% increase to the player's potential average damage if played correctly
2: It is a high damage knockback attack (damage amplified by the fact that it Exploits.) Because knockback severity scales with damage, this means that Pounce is actually much more likely to cause a severe knockback than other knockback Actives, such as Telekinesis, which in actual fact almost never knock their target because of their low damage. Note that this power benefits from a tactical officer's superbuff. ***I tested this because I wasn't sure. Lunge and Pounce DOES burn Ambush. -Guriphu.*** Note that Pounce is not reduced by Dampening Field or by Suppressing Fire.
3: It is a gap closer that is not affected by holds and slows, duplicating the effectiveness of the Operative kit's Lunge at countering kits like Physicist, Equipment Technician, and Enemy Neutralization.
4: It does not share a cooldown with Lunge, allowing for chaining them back to back for repeated knockback attacks.
5: Its cooldown is too short. 12 seconds for Pounce, compared to one minute for Telekinesis, its closest analogous power. Note that this power benefits from Tactical Initiative, like everything else.

Solution: Put Pounce on a shared cooldown with Lunge. Make it an Expose attack. Increase its cooldown to 1 minute. Reduce its damage by 50%.

EDIT: corrected a number that I had estimated incorrectly.

Last edited by guriphu; 01-31-2013 at 02:27 PM.
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 460
# 144
01-30-2013, 04:38 PM
I've read *most* of the topic and haven't seen it mentioned, so can I chime in and see something finally done about that blasted hypercompressed cryo launcher? There is no reason that thing should exist in its current form.

I understand that it's an item people pay real money for. But to have it be miles ahead of the next closest thing (which is already dangerously close to oneshotting people) and completely negate every defensive bonus there is in the game is just foolish balance.

I'm no balance expert, but my solution would be to scale the damage back so that it does about 10% more damage than the next hardest hitting weapons, or give us some sort of meaningful cold resist.
Joined: January 2010

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Cryptic Studios Team
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,708
# 145
01-30-2013, 05:34 PM
I've compiled the feedback from this thread into a little "For Review" list for myself that's sitting on my Desktop for those rare occasions that I have spare cycles to work on it.

While I don't have anything constructive to add to the discussion on many of the points until I've had time to perform more thorough investigations, I can still comment on a few quick points of concern.

1) Photonic Shockwave Torpedo is benefiting from Photonic Studies doffs.

This is a bug, and I just checked in a fix for it. Thanks for pointing it out!

2) Lunge+Pounce should share a cooldown.

I absolutely agree, and this will happen. While there are additional concerns with Caitian/Ferasan racial Traits, this particular bullet point is easily addressed.


That's all I have for now, other than acknowledging the rest of your feedback, but there are too many individual bullet points to call out one-by-one. Thanks for keeping this thread constructive!

A quick parting note: It's actually more useful to us Devs if the posts that you guys make focus on the particular balance concern you have, detailing why you consider it an issue, and stay away from recommending fixes. While many of you have fine ideas about repairing some of the concerns the community raises, there exists a tendency to skip to the "You can fix X by doing Y" part of leaving feedback, without first explaining to us why you feel X needs to be fixed to begin with.
Jeremy Randall
Cryptic - Staff Systems Designer
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Last edited by borticuscryptic; 01-30-2013 at 05:37 PM.
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 993
# 146
01-30-2013, 06:01 PM
Originally Posted by radkip View Post
I've read *most* of the topic and haven't seen it mentioned, so can I chime in and see something finally done about that blasted hypercompressed cryo launcher? There is no reason that thing should exist in its current form.

I understand that it's an item people pay real money for. But to have it be miles ahead of the next closest thing (which is already dangerously close to oneshotting people) and completely negate every defensive bonus there is in the game is just foolish balance.

I'm no balance expert, but my solution would be to scale the damage back so that it does about 10% more damage than the next hardest hitting weapons, or give us some sort of meaningful cold resist.
I've posted it here

But Bort can you please look into the Cryo Launcher first? it's making defense in the game laughable and i think it's one of the main reason why people dont like to do ground pvp, no one likes to get one shoted
Division Hispana
Empire Veteran
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 3,274
# 147
01-30-2013, 06:04 PM
Okay you can fix X(B'rel having to be consistently unloading torpedo after torpedo) when you fire at Y its like all the anti cloaking skills become useless and may I point out devalues the federation sides need for the emission seeking torpedo when in PvP the decloaking every 3 seconds which in PvP if you want to play a bomber like this there isn't an adequate tactic that can be used to do this that doesn't keep you visibly targetable at pretty much any time you are trying to fire at the target.

My solution is one I saw a long time ago or a combination of them.

#1. Keep the decloaking as it is when using certain boff skills or captain only skills when they are used but instead of decloaking one of the people who do the animations should have it do like it did in canon by emitting a red flash of front of the bop when a torpedo fires from the front.

#2. One of Heretic's statements was to have transphasics work like a mid range targetable torpedo that does a decent amount of damage and shield penetration if the 3 second decloaking being replaced with above wouldn't work.

#3. Something that would sell on the KDF since we did not get a wide arc torpedo like the fed side is because photons are mostly canon for both factions across the board is make a photon torp that can be used on any KDF ship but different effects depending on what ship it is fired from.

Those are some of my ideas but I've wanted a viable b'rel bomber for quite some time that could work in pve and pvp but its just not there because the only close to viable thing is fireing plasma torps but a smart person can carry hazard emitters to nerf the b'rel bomber with just one skill.
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 4,265
# 148
01-30-2013, 07:01 PM
I'm a little surprised almost nobody has mentioned extreme console stacking and how that affects things, turning powers from 'working as intended' into OMFG. One person mentioned earlier combining 5 Graviton Generators with Graviton Pulse and creating substantial hurt. Or several months ago when PSW got the nerf bat after people were amping it up into 20k+ base hits. Or the several pages worth of hate for the JHAS courtesy of (among other things) its 5 tac consoles.

What if consoles were limited to say 3 of any kind regardless of mark or quality, so as to limit the ability to overspecialize and abuse things that are just fine if used as intended? Less discrepancy between normal use and min-maxing, and might encourage some diversification (escorts with something besides energy consoles?? Madness!!). Plus easier to balance adjustments since the difference between normal and peak use would be smaller, because otherwise there are too many abilities that are either great for PVP but useless for PVE, or solid for PVE but then seeds of rage in PVP. Clearly not a fix-all for everything (or even a sole fix for any one thing), but potentially beneficial?
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 460
# 149
01-30-2013, 07:49 PM
Originally Posted by mrkollins View Post
I've posted it here
Ah, the one page I didn't read. Cheers!
Joined: January 2010

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Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 461
# 150
01-30-2013, 08:05 PM
Additional balance problems, this time from abilities that aren't performing according to what their design purpose appears to be.

Suppressing Fire (Tactical Kit Power)
The description for this power indicates that it debuffs All Damage. This is not correct. Suppressing Fire does not debuff the damage done by melee weapons, Lunge, or Pounce. This is a balance problem, not just a display problem, because it falls under the category of an intended counter that does not actually counter the powers it is supposed to.

Solution: expand Suppressing Fire to debuff physical melee damage.

Dampening Field (Science Ground Captain Ability)
This power debuffs all energy damage. Historically, this was identical to debuffing all gun damage, but with the emergence and popularity of highly effective guns that do non-energy damage, this power is no longer doing its job. Dampening Field, which used to be a sci's best defense against a cloaker's oneshot, is now entirely useless against it, because neither the cryo pulsewave nor the lunge are debuffed by it.

Solution: have Dampening Field debuff all damage, or at least all gun damage.

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