Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 741
# 21
01-31-2013, 10:26 AM
1vs1 is irrelevant in this game. PvP is about team play, try getting some friends.
John Sheridan@playhard88 - FED Tactical
Vin Naftero@playhard88 - FED Sciencie
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Argento@playhard88 - RRF Tactical (FED)
Starfleet Veteran
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 3,330
# 22
01-31-2013, 10:29 AM
Okay, to summarize the actual arguments (apart from the usual forum PvP (including namecalling), side remarks and unavoidable thread drift) for balancing around a given team size:

  • "All 1v1 situations on the game are just because people left the vicinity of their team."
  • "Testing powers for a 1v1 system tells you nothing of value when those powers then arrive in a 5v5 system. If you want to balance around 1v1, then there can be no teaming mode - which would just be sad and ridiculous." (Could anyone flesh out this claim?)
  • "[...] you end up with a 'draw' between two generalized ships, where neither ship can defeat the other, or you end up with a match between two specialized ships such that one is the 'hard counter' to the other, and the fight only ever can go one way. [...] 1v1 right now has these same problems [it is not] possible to fix them [...] without totally destroying team play [...]"
  • "[...] every single reason why NOT balancing for 1v1 is functionally an argument in favor of 5v5 [...]"
  • "[...] there are mechanics in team situations (2v2 and higher) that are completely non-existent in 1v1: cross-healing, focus fire, target switches.[...]"

Did I miss any thing? Then please add it.
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Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,395
# 23
01-31-2013, 10:32 AM
I don't think anyone with half a right mind is going to agree with the way you're selectively summarizing their posts. It's a condescending and intellectually dishonest thing to do.

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[9:52] [Zone #11] Neal@trapper1532: im a omega force shadow oprative and a maoc elite camander and here i am taking water samples
Captain
Join Date: Jan 2013
Posts: 3,158
# 24
01-31-2013, 10:42 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by mrtshead View Post
You seem to think there's no problem scaling that up to a 5v5, and you would be right, IF all ships targeted different opponents.
This brings up an interesting point: It seems clear that as the number of participants in the battle increases, the more focused fire dominates the field and any individual participant becomes far less relevant.

Of course, for some odd reason, on the show, focus fire is relatively rare. There's gotta be a reason for this, right? It can't just be that the people on the show are tactical morons. Perhaps some mechanic at work discourages excessive use of focus fire? Perhaps such a thing would encourage a tendency towards 5v5 being more of a brawl and less of an exercise in focus firing on a single target until it dies...

I know Sins implemented a mechanic that was intended to discourage this, but it wasn't entirely successful.
Captain
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 3,160
# 25
01-31-2013, 10:49 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by thissler View Post
That's not balance. That's homogenization. Most of the other bits didn't even make much sense. Even the ones that did make some sort of sense were at odds with the above statement. You can't have everyone the same and then give certain groups certain roles and special abilities. See how that works? You need it one way or the other.
I can't argue with that.

Quote:
Oh and I know you put...."in different ways" into that statement. Meaningless as it was you did include it. It's meaningless because it makes no sense. And how exactly will a cruiser do the same burst damage as an escort? Or will we reduce the burst damage of an escort down to the level of what a cruiser can do? How exactly do we make an escort heals equal to a cruisers? And then make it percentage based as well? And suppose they use that heal on a different ship?
As BAs would get their power drain fixed so they don't murder themselves cruisers would have the power to sit there and cause pain while the escort was out not getting killed while the escorts make up for their damage downtime in burst damage; the way I think it was designed before F2P, They wouldn't be bringing a ship up to one level or the other down to the level of the first ship rather meeting somewhere in the middle. I know this will lead to complaints of cruisers online but so long as the escorts and cruisers are balanced against eachother (as per when F2P stared) it should not be a problem, escort burst damage will still be the most powerful out there and the captain type will be more the deciding factor.

I admit I didn't totally think the whole healing thing out and overall that would give science the overall advantage in healing power, the percentages would be based on the targets max stats and boosted by the user's aux power meaning an escort could heal as well as a cruiser at the cost of damage just as a sci could focus on damage at the cost of sci powers and how cruisers would make the same choice though I see them then picking the middle of the road as a BA drain fix would make that possible.

Quote:
So there was a lot of stuff in your post but there's a lot of conflict.

And 1 v 1 does not ever scale upwards unless off course we're talking identical ships and/or they are the only two ship/player types in the game. So there is that little bit you need to account for.
Theoretically the balance changes I've laid out here would make all ship types roughly equal with each being slightly better in a given area; Escorts having more tac boffs making them deal more damage in a given run, cruisers being jacks of all trades with a slight edge in the engineering spectrum and science having an edge in the science area of things but all being essentially equal until you add a captain and boff skills and choose your specialism with each option making you weaker to the opposite.

Thanks for picking that apart, I confess I was short on time typing it so I probably didn't think it through completely, I also didn't have time to proof read it. I hope I have cleared things up somewhat.
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 881
# 26
01-31-2013, 11:18 AM
This thread is bad and you should feel bad.
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 3,400
# 27
01-31-2013, 12:23 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by shimmerless View Post
I don't think anyone with half a right mind is going to agree with the way you're selectively summarizing their posts. It's a condescending and intellectually dishonest thing to do.
Well said.

Captain
Join Date: Nov 2012
Posts: 585
# 28
01-31-2013, 12:41 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by doffingcomrade View Post
This brings up an interesting point: It seems clear that as the number of participants in the battle increases, the more focused fire dominates the field and any individual participant becomes far less relevant.

Of course, for some odd reason, on the show, focus fire is relatively rare. There's gotta be a reason for this, right? It can't just be that the people on the show are tactical morons. Perhaps some mechanic at work discourages excessive use of focus fire? Perhaps such a thing would encourage a tendency towards 5v5 being more of a brawl and less of an exercise in focus firing on a single target until it dies...

I know Sins implemented a mechanic that was intended to discourage this, but it wasn't entirely successful.
If you go back and look at several battles in DS9, often whichever ship was fated to die would have several ships attacking it, often making their attack runs while screening each other. The Defiant and a pair of BoP's teaming up to wreck a Jem warship, two Galaxy's making combined phaser attacks on a Galor, an Excelsior and two or three Mirandas making concentrated attacks on a weapons platform. The fact of the matter is that focus fire is always the way to go in large combats... unless your units are individually capable of killing single targets in roughly the same amount of time that it would take your combined firepower to kill a single target.

Of course, if you were able to field that much firepower, without it sacrificing your ability to actually kill because said firepower keeps getting blown up, you'd just end up with game devolving to everyone fielding brute-force teams to kill as fast as possible with no considerations for cross healing... just like STF's.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 160
# 29
01-31-2013, 12:45 PM
I have to say you bring up a few interesting arguments Soph, but I believe that this would destroy team play irreparably. Maybe you could set up some rules for a 1v1 tourney limiting equipment & ships skills ect to see if it's possible to do this using the game as it is now? IE No doffs, max weapons levels for different classes of ships, no set equipment, different max armor levels for different classes, ect.
Time played in game. as of 9/12/12 (on my mains) Total 2907 hours.K'zoontite has been on active duty for 34 days, 3 hours, Bot Fly has been on active duty for 55 days, 4 hours, Poppa Capp has been on active duty for 4 days, 12 hours, B'zooka has been on active duty for 12 days, 22 hours,Tater(fed) has been on active duty for 14 days, 10 hours,

Last edited by amidoinitright; 01-31-2013 at 12:51 PM.
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,395
# 30
01-31-2013, 12:51 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by amidoinitright View Post
I have to say you bring up a few interesting arguments Soph, but I believe that this would destroy team play irreparably. Maybe you could set up some rules for a 1v1 tourney limiting equipment & ships skills ect to see if it's possible to do this using the game as it is now?
You want to go that route, best success I've found in my experience is in mirroring ship classes. Ironically Cappy types aren't quite as important and make things more interesting (Tacscort vs Sciscort is always interesting to watch) but you find that certain ships can more or less live forever and such.

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[9:52] [Zone #11] Neal@trapper1532: im a omega force shadow oprative and a maoc elite camander and here i am taking water samples
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