Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,427
# 201
01-31-2013, 12:32 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by tk79 View Post
Wait, so I can stack 5 Neutronium Alloys and get full benefit to damage resistance with no diminishing returns? Can you please clarify what's exactly not true?
I've posted about this before and I can't for the life of me find it via search. However, there's still a good, succinct explanation here. What it essentially comes down to is that the original game designers already anticipated people stacking multiple sources of armor, so they prevented runaway leaks due to the exponential nature of resistance (for example, if you have 50% resist and you add a console that gives another 10%, it's actually reducing the incoming damage you receive by 20%).

vids and guides and stuff

[9:52] [Zone #11] Neal@trapper1532: im a omega force shadow oprative and a maoc elite camander and here i am taking water samples
Commander
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 461
# 202
01-31-2013, 12:33 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by buccaneerdtb View Post
Do you even ground PvP at all?

Strike Team +40% all damage - Targeting Optics +40% damage - Ambush +150% damage - Fire on my mark -40% resistance - Battle Strategies +25% damage

That is a Tactical Buff with the Operative kit. The Romulan Kit adds Motion Accelerater to all that.
The same Tac can be buffed by a Physician on top of all the Tac buffs.
Pounce does about 450-500 damage superbuffed, depending on build. It can supercrit thanks to stacking Security Officer doffs and tac buffs to about 1500, although 1000 is more probable. Exploit damage further increases this by an unknown calculation, but about 50% experimentally, give or take a wide margin of error. Further damage comes from stacking dr debuffs.

Last edited by guriphu; 01-31-2013 at 12:37 PM.
Commander
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 461
# 203
01-31-2013, 12:36 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by buccaneerdtb View Post
Quoted to make sure it does not get lost in all the posts. This is a problem with Lunge and Pounce. Grenades also work the same way.
I modified my original post above. I tested Lunge and it turns out that I am not correct. I have not tested Pounce. You are correct about grenades. I would appreciate it if you could edit your post to reflect this, to avoid confusing others.

EDIT: Tested Pounce, it does burn ambush.

Last edited by guriphu; 01-31-2013 at 03:25 PM.
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 598
# 204
01-31-2013, 02:23 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by shimmerless View Post
I've posted about this before and I can't for the life of me find it via search. However, there's still a good, succinct explanation here. What it essentially comes down to is that the original game designers already anticipated people stacking multiple sources of armor, so they prevented runaway leaks due to the exponential nature of resistance (for example, if you have 50% resist and you add a console that gives another 10%, it's actually reducing the incoming damage you receive by 20%).
The formula in that blog yields similar results to the DR formula (http://www.stowiki.org/Damage_resistance), which is what the in-game ship profile window tells me. If I go for 5x Neutronium (5x 20), in-game data will surely show me close to 50% resistance to everything, which is about in line with both the formula in that blog and the DR formula in the wiki. Hence it doesn't change things much from what I currently see in-game. So, if this is correct, then the in-game information is also correct. BUT...

Quote:
Originally Posted by p2wsucks View Post
Iirc it basically goes as follows:

1x10% resist console

100 incoming damage -> 90

2 x 10% resists console

100 incoming damage -> 90 (100-10) -> 81 (90-9)

Instead of 10x2 = 20, then 100-20=80

What I don't know is if you have say 36 % console vs 2x18%

64 vs

82 - (82x.18)=67.24

In otherwords it seems it's better to have 1 high Kinetic resist + 1 high Energy rather than multiple lower ones.
... if this is correct instead, then it's indeed better to equip one Monotanium and one energy-based hull armor/plating instead of two Neutroniums. This yields lower final numbers (greater damage reduction), for example, a +80 resistance from consoles (2x Monotanium) would take 1000 kinetic damage down to 360, which is definitely better than the DR formula.

Bottom line: I've been space PvP'ing as an Engineer only to be told that we're not that useful. I tank well in PvP, but I believe I should tank better. By tanking, I draw attention away from my squishy teammates, preventing them to be killed and the team getting negative points. My ship is also a great hull healer, both for self and allies, so when I'm not tanking, I'm cross-healing, and it usually saves teammates from death more than not. Even so, I also believe that I should heal better. I'm having a hard time working with my limited skills for healing and tanking while tactical and science captains have powerful skills that increase damage or debuff stats (respectively) into oblivion, while tanking is restrained by diminishing returns (or "percentage resistances" if you must) and cross healing is limited compared to what other specializations get.
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,427
# 205
01-31-2013, 02:42 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by tk79 View Post
Bottom line: I've been space PvP'ing as an Engineer only to be told that we're not that useful. I tank well in PvP, but I believe I should tank better. By tanking, I draw attention away from my squishy teammates, preventing them to be killed and the team getting negative points. My ship is also a great hull healer, both for self and allies, so when I'm not tanking, I'm cross-healing, and it usually saves teammates from death more than not. Even so, I also believe that I should heal better. I'm having a hard time working with my limited skills for healing and tanking while tactical and science captains have powerful skills that increase damage or debuff stats (respectively) into oblivion, while tanking is restrained by diminishing returns (or "percentage resistances" if you must) and cross healing is limited compared to what other specializations get.
I completely respect your desire to play a crucial team role, and you seem to have a very clear-sighted and well-informed view on just how to do that and how the game's played. However, I have to say you might be in the minority if you're of the opinion that Engie healers have limited tanking/heal options. The amount of healing and help that a good Engie healer alone can throw around make a team with two or more virtually impenetrable.

I do agree with the popular belief that Engies have a quite narrow focus due to their lack of castable Cap powers. However, as things stand, the strength of the Engie is that he's completely self-sufficient; you can throw around more heals because you yourself aren't nearly as dependent on your own bridge officer layout.

vids and guides and stuff

[9:52] [Zone #11] Neal@trapper1532: im a omega force shadow oprative and a maoc elite camander and here i am taking water samples
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 3,400
# 206
01-31-2013, 02:48 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by tk79 View Post
Bottom line: I've been space PvP'ing as an Engineer only to be told that we're not that useful. I tank well in PvP, but I believe I should tank better.
Ok, a couple of things.

1) How resistances are calculated are probably one of the least important things to a Engineer in a (what I assume is) Cruiser.

2) The problem with Engineers in PvP is not that they are unable to tank, the problem is that how much incoming fire one specific target can tank is irrelevant.

The reason it's irrelevant is because it doesn't matter if one guy who has low damage capabilities is invincible, because the other team will just focus fire on your weaker link team mates.

The problem with Engineers is that they bring nothing to the table in the way of setting up kills (Sci) or finishing kills (Tac) - and some of their best career abilities are self only.


They are self-sufficient as Shim says, and that lets them use more of their heals for others.

But it's not tanking that they have issues with (they don't have issues with tanking).


Quote:
Originally Posted by tk79 View Post
By tanking, I draw attention away from my squishy teammates, preventing them to be killed and the team getting negative points.
I can't imagine this will happen against a competent team, they will ignore, disrupt or marginalize you while they kill your teammates.


Quote:
Originally Posted by tk79 View Post
My ship is also a great hull healer, both for self and allies, so when I'm not tanking, I'm cross-healing, and it usually saves teammates from death more than not. Even so, I also believe that I should heal better.
Now you've hit the bullseye.

I believe Engineers should heal better too, and I believe that MW and RSF should be usable on others as the first starting point to help Engineers add more value to teams than they do now.



Quote:
Originally Posted by tk79 View Post
while tanking is restrained by diminishing returns (or "percentage resistances" if you must)
Again, this part isn't important.


Last edited by ussultimatum; 01-31-2013 at 02:52 PM.
Survivor of Romulus
Join Date: Sep 2012
Posts: 5,836
# 207
01-31-2013, 06:40 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by buccaneerdtb View Post
Then really shouldn't Gorn be even more OP on ground? Why should ground be unbalanced at all? I agree that there should be advantages in certain areas with traits and species, however, making a species superior in all types of combat (melee, mobility, and dodge) is too much. At least take away access to covert trait for cats so they can't lunge and pounce while totally invisible.

Let's introduce a new space superior race, like the aquatic Xindi, that get 'Space Instincts' : +10% accuracy +10% elusive +10 power to all systems + 3 other traits. And give access to a unique racial trait 'system restore' that recools all BO powers by 50% with a 30 second cooldown. That would force all space PvPers to either be Xindi or go home, much like Caitians have done for ground PvP.

How about adding a new species Wolverine design. They have these steel claws and regenerate health very fast.....
Seriously?
Caitian/Ferasan are OP for you? How about their space skills?

Well, since we're having a serious discussion here, why don't the devs. make everyone equal. No, even better, let's make everyone Q! Then, we all can be omnipotent and host a winter wonderland! We'll just swap skins to adjust to our preffered looks.

And while they're at it, they can make all starships equal so cruisers won't "suck" compared to escorts. And battlecloak for everyone!!
On the second thought, the devs shouldn't bother with ships anymore then, since we'll all be Q will just travel by the snap of our fingers as a special passive

And since we'll all be playing equal omnipotent chars, we'll resolve ground PvP by who manages to type "kill" first.

*facepalms*
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 556
# 208
02-01-2013, 08:10 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by shpoks View Post
Seriously?
Caitian/Ferasan are OP for you? How about their space skills?
*facepalms*
The discussion was about Catians on ground where space skills are not a factor. They get 3 traits in 1 where Gorn get 3 traits as 3 and only choose 1 more making them weaker than cats on ground. Borticus aready said pounce and lunge will share a recool as we asked for.

As for available space traits; Catians can get the best 2, Accurate and Elusive, and still be OP on ground.

Last edited by buccaneerdtb; 02-01-2013 at 12:33 PM.
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 597
# 209
02-01-2013, 01:36 PM
Bort this question is directed for you. can we see the cloaking console for the defiant get an upgrade? maybe an advanced cloak? dont need battle cloak because we dont need to shoot torps from cloak or send heals from cloak like the klinks do. just to be able to use cloak under combat.

right now even in pve there are better options for console slotting that hlp the ship better then using a console you can only use out of combat. its no good for stf or even pvp. any pve its mainly wasted. you can finish missions faster with out waiting for red alert to leave then waiting for red alert to go away to cloak up again. it just makes no sense to equip the cloak console. you can either equip resist armor consoles shield emitters or universal consoles as a better option to help the ship perform better.

really this console is "fun" but has no use. i mean go into cure elite space with it and see what happens every time you wait for red alert to leave. not to mention how much longer it would take to finish the mission.
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 765
# 210
02-01-2013, 01:43 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by broken1981 View Post
Bort this question is directed for you. can we see the cloaking console for the defiant get an upgrade? maybe an advanced cloak? dont need battle cloak because we dont need to shoot torps from cloak or send heals from cloak like the klinks do. just to be able to use cloak under combat.
this is not been talked 100 times, it been talked thousand of times. Defiant cloak won't get upgraded
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