Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 207
# 121
02-01-2013, 08:33 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by skyranger1414 View Post
I think its actually kinda sad. I can't help but feel most of these are simply cruiser pilots wanting to do more damage. And yet... when you tell them exactly how they can alter their build to trade in tankyness for DPS they almost always backtrack.

Its even worse when you hear so many lamenting how shaving off a few extra energy cost off their weapons would "make it all alright". Wether its a needed change or not its clear a lot of people are incorrectly thinking that implementing such a change will make their cruisers death machines. That's so wrong its not even funny. Its more of the same really, they don't understand that any significant changes in their DPS potential has to be accompanied by a similar change in their build and playstyle.

It might be that "most of these are simply cruiser pilots wanting to do more damage" is true as cruiser pilots mostly use beams.

A lot of posts that I have read in regards to doing more DPS with someone's cruiser was usually along the lines of either "get an escort" or "use (single) cannons.' While that is true to increase DPS, it does not solve the main issue... beams need some work.

As it stands, most builds for beam boats do not do what is considered respectable damage by most. That's not to say it is not possible to do so, it takes a good amount of fine tuning to get it right; and even then a little more work to the build can always squeeze out a little more DPS.

There have been several references to cannons in this posting. Whenever I read cannons, I do not think of DHCs or DCs... just cannons; so please be specific on type to avoid confusion.

And I do perform respectable DPS with my cruisers (a D'kora and a Regent)... and I am still working on them. The one I am working on with the Regent is simply because someone said it couldn't be done... and I am nearly there.
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,694
# 122
02-01-2013, 08:52 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by nicha0 View Post
You just changed a cannon vs beam post into a cruiser vs escort post.
That's because Beams vs. Cannons posts really boil down to cruisers vs. escorts. If not as an original intent by the OP, then definitely by most of the posters. I won't disagree that beams may in fact need a rework; but by and large, most of those clamoring for such a change believe it will be a huge DPS gain for beams, and by extension for cruisers.

The changes most often talked about will not be such game changers. They could reduce the energy cost of firing a beam array by 2 this very moment and its impact would not even be felt by most of the cruiser playerbase.

What would be felt immediately by everyone though? A turn buff to fed cruisers (AKA: Space Whales) !! Lets try to push for that instead.
Empire Veteran
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 6,757
# 123
02-01-2013, 09:56 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by zarathos1978 View Post
But it does not change the fact that the damage difference is still in favour of cannons outside of very small difference beyond 7km (I think) that favours beams. But difference is minimal. So below 3km cannons decisively overpower beams. Between 3-7km cannons either are more powerfull or just as powerfull as beams and beams become more powerfull above 7km. But the difference is minimal and does not correspond to the advantage cannons have below 3km.

So the dropdown in power between beams and cannons does not really matter.
Only the BOff abilities avialible to buff cannons make the difference seem negliable.
Cannons drop in damage much worse than beams outside of 2km, period. The BOff abilities of CRF/CSV plus Tac Captain abilities make up for that drop off.

Beams are better at close range and extreme range but lack similiar BOff style buffs to make up for thier drop off. This is why I push for a beam version of CRF

Take a Escort into a test mission and fire at 10km without any Buffs and see for yourself.
Do the same with beams and note the results. Beams should do more damage at range.
Then do it with Buffs for both and note the results.
Roy Hatch (stryker) soldier, friend, and good man.
1945-2014
RIP
Empire Veteran
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 6,757
# 124
02-01-2013, 10:03 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by zarathos1978 View Post
^^ This.

Also - I can sit with my Patrol Escort with white Mk XI DHCs at 10km and still outDPS a cruiser with purple Mk XI or higher beams just because cannons are that much more powerfull and the boost from CRF and even CSV plus is something unreachable for cruisers.

So my escort outDPV (ok) and outDPS (not ok) cruisers at any range.
In one shot? Doubtful if not out right wrong.

The drain of beam will scuttle thier damage at any range under a constant fire scenario. Thats most likely why you would see better damage from whites over purples at 10km.
Try it agai on a single shot basis and stell us what you find.
Roy Hatch (stryker) soldier, friend, and good man.
1945-2014
RIP
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,295
# 125
02-01-2013, 10:15 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by bitemepwe View Post
Unless something has changed this already close to the case. Cannons drop off much faster than beams so at 10k beams do aproximately 65% of thier base damage while cannons do aproximately 35% of thier base damage.
The difference is that both beams and cannons are most effective at close ranges, at 1 km and 2 km respectively.

Both beam and cannon users are thus encouraged to get closer - but because base damage is so low on beams compared to cannons, they actually have stronger encouragement to get up close.

If beams had no drop off up to 5 km, then suddenly their ideal range is 5 km, and it really does become a "beams distance", "cannons higher damage but closer" issue. As it currently stands, all weapons are encouraged to be used up close.

(I'm not in a cruiser by the way, my last experience with beams was a single Phaser DBB in my Vesta for Subsystem Targeting and Overload, and the Experimental Romulan Plasma Beam Array in my JHEC for the Hyperflux and Overload. Improving beams won't really change anything for me other than improving STF PUGs.)

"Don't let them promote you. Don't let them transfer you. Don't let them do anything that takes you off the bridge of that ship, because while you're there... you can make a difference." - James T. Kirk
Captain
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 3,553
# 126
02-01-2013, 12:07 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by nicha0 View Post
You just changed a cannon vs beam post into a cruiser vs escort post.
Because they always inadvertently become these. Period. Every single thread that has tried to comment on beams (even those like one I made about ONLY beams) very soon turned into beams vs cannons (despite efforts by multiple posters), which soon became beamcruisers vs cannonscorts, which turned into cruisers vs escorts, and then the usual forum war that follows.

It's simply because you cannot have one without causing the other. It's the nature of the current game to have that happen. Cruisers will feel sluggish and gimped compared to the superscorts you see zooming around. Escorts will always feel that they deserve the top spot. And so on and so forth. End result: constant useless bickering.
It is said the best weapon is one that is never fired. I disagree. The best weapon is one you only have to fire... once.
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Rihannsu
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 3,574
# 127
02-01-2013, 01:40 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by hereticknight085 View Post
It's simply because you cannot have one without causing the other. It's the nature of the current game to have that happen.
Sadly.

As beams currently are it makes Escorts all following the DHC/Turret layout without variation, sure we might see torpedo launchers added because of the energy drain being too high but there is no change from this basic weapon layout.

So there is no variation because if you want a Prometheus like in VOY (and that means beams) that means you are gripping yourself and opening yourself to insults from people that do not allow others to play "sub-optimal".

I want beams to be a OPTION for ALL ships, not to just be put on ships that lack the ability to mount DHCs because they cannot mount DHCs.
Captain
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 2,976
# 128
02-01-2013, 01:41 PM
I just swapped over to an Aux2Batt build cycling FAW and AP:B that thing is evil (I'm tempted to throw DEM into the keybind) the only problem I have is reworking the heals to me them rather more reliable
Captain
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 507
# 129
02-01-2013, 01:42 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by hereticknight085 View Post
Because they always inadvertently become these. Period. Every single thread that has tried to comment on beams (even those like one I made about ONLY beams) very soon turned into beams vs cannons (despite efforts by multiple posters), which soon became beamcruisers vs cannonscorts, which turned into cruisers vs escorts, and then the usual forum war that follows.

It's simply because you cannot have one without causing the other. It's the nature of the current game to have that happen. Cruisers will feel sluggish and gimped compared to the superscorts you see zooming around. Escorts will always feel that they deserve the top spot. And so on and so forth. End result: constant useless bickering.
Herectic, just leave it it's for the best. I've found that despite that nearly everything is the game can be put down to "Do you really know how to use it?" people cannot accept that statement as an answer. We should just step away and let nonsense reign here. Okay mate?
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Commander
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 307
# 130
02-01-2013, 01:45 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by zarathos1978 View Post
^^ This.

Also - I can sit with my Patrol Escort with white Mk XI DHCs at 10km and still outDPS a cruiser with purple Mk XI or higher beams just because cannons are that much more powerfull and the boost from CRF and even CSV plus is something unreachable for cruisers.

So my escort outDPV (ok) and outDPS (not ok) cruisers at any range.
Yup, you might be able to still do slightly more dmg with 4DHCs/3Turrets than his 8 beams (for the sake of example and if you're the same kind of captain, which is a given).

But you're missing an important point. You (I quote) sit.
Because in the long term it's the only way to keep your DHCs on target without doing flybys, which will ruin your dps.
The Cruiser is flying in circles at full speed, all the time, at full Defense.
Under heavy fire the Cruiser is clearly superior and deals more dps, since he can simply keep firing, while a moving Escort cannot maintain constant fire on a given target without losing Defense and consequently dying.

I mean.. I'm not telling this secret to many people: but putting beams on an Escort isn't necessarily wrong if you need stable dps and a stable defense bonus.

He's dead, Jim.

Last edited by lolimpicard; 02-01-2013 at 01:56 PM.
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