Ensign
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 5
# 11
02-01-2013, 08:10 AM
No Sci focused ship with a cloak.....whaaaaaaaaat?

Heghta is free at 40

B'rel can dump sci and torps from the enhanced battle cloak, and lay mines without decloaking at all. It is potentially the best focused sci ship in game.

Chron spread sci dump in the 3 second window - chron/trico mines after recloak
-or, you can dump heals-

The Fleet B'rel....meh.....only brings it inline with the Heghta, i suppose the extra engi console is good for universals - still gonna get one. You can run a fairly amusing vm/ eject wp /gravwell - or psw /w ever popular phaser and trico -with added photonic torp console, thx feds- for full on disabling goodness with the beefier frame (and still have thy/crf /dpb). Just hit pol hull eps rsp evasive and make the run till the cloak comes back up - fade to black-. And of course, you always have ss and subnuc. Wait till some baddie pops all his garb to survive the raptor fire and come in screaming with a subnuc lead.

Conversely, if you just dont want to tango, go with 4 torps forward, 1 to taste (I like chrono spread) and then bio nueral, breen cluster, and harpeng with one torp and one mine rear for dispersal and spread/photo torp. 3 cd skills sure, but cooking one from cloak gives you the option of a spread and a photo, or a photo dispersal out of ebc - still dumping sci. The potential for cc and disabling in any sci bop is absurd..and if you want, you can bring a little dps to the table.

(keep in mind the rep skills as well, specifically the t5 sci/cloak)

Now sure, sure, the BOPS can't take a hit....but I leave the tanking to the engineers slowboating around in their bricks/crossheals.

Truth be told, there just isn't a whole lot of sci that's useful, and it's easy to pick up what is..plus its all fairly long cd (leaving you pretty useless as a focused sci guy in the interim)...so you're left with the choice of potentially shield tanking in a fed sci, or bringing more deeps to the table in a bop.....in pve I like my vesta (not that you cant get a nice pvp vesta build - it just doesn't have the same surprise 1 finger salute that coming out of cloak to dump sci and dps does))....pvp..well, my vote goes kdf for useful sci.

(vu'qov is more of an engi boat, kar'fi tac - though sci can do fine - in pve- with either, ss/photo fleet and all)

Last edited by kassahn; 02-01-2013 at 08:36 AM.
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,228
# 12
02-01-2013, 08:34 AM
Honestly, two ships in less than 30 keys and you aren't in Vegas this weekend?
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Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,233
# 13
02-01-2013, 08:44 AM
You can choose to sci-focus a BoP, but that doesn't make it a sci ship. It's a BoP with sci abilities loaded on it.

Vo'Quv screams sci. Sure, an eng will do fine in it, but she is a sci boat. Kar'Fi is just a beast for anybody, but it certainly has a Sci slant.

Edit: And so far as sci abilites being not good, you obviously haven't see the difference a good debuff sci makes in a situaion like Hive Onslaught... Of course, it becomes team dependant. My debuffs are only worth it if I have a team that can bring the DPS to go with it. Most of the time I cruise about as DPS sci, which while maybe not quite as high as a tac/escort, I'm right up there and bringing a full complement of sci goodies as wel.

Sci isn't bad, its just highly situational and most people do not appreciate what debuffs bring to a team. If it doesn't translate directly into personal DPS many players just pretend it doesn't exist.
I once again match my character. Behold the power of PINK!

Vice Admiral Space Orphidian Possiblities Wizard

Last edited by kimmym; 02-01-2013 at 08:48 AM.
Ensign
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 5
# 14
02-01-2013, 10:09 AM
Technically nothing makes a sci ship a sci ship unless its a fed sci ship - nevertheless, the bop fits the bill for a ship that can toss one of the three or so useful boff sci abilities and bring something else to the table.

Vu'Qov screams "I can only point my deflector at pve targets, and even that is annoying - but i can tank like a boss...with an engie at the helm boosting my wep, shields, and aux to max so i can actually do dps and quick launch my external torpedo tubes like i know what I'm doing".
Admittedly, you can't really hold aggro in a Vo as an engie like you can in a bc, but hey, who cares, if you actually needed to tanks things in this game for longer than it takes for your tac buddies to kill it then we'd have problems wouldn't we?

Kar'Fi is better sure, but a tac in a Kar'fi embarrasses a sci in a Kar'fi.
-neither, of course, can cloak - barring t5 and a short phase shift-

I've seen the difference, what with loving sci ships, dumping all my resources into both my fed and kdf sci - with every boat you might want to fly to choose from for either - and they're differences that make no difference relative to simply bringing another tac in a dps boat - I know, I know, sucks, I don't like it anymore than you, but it is what it is. The only sci boff skills useful in pve -at all- are gravwell, siphon, and tbr. The most useful thing you have in any stf as a sci you'll have in whatever ship you fly -subnuc the cube/boss buffs and ss-.

In hive though, I do love my mirror Vo. I use siphon (what with not needing to face) and go broadside with beams at range (normally cannons would be better - but range is nice in hive agreed) and hammer em with micro'd bops. Facing the queen for subnucs is fun as well. Similar effect with a Kar'Fi and dbbs plus advanced frigs on micro for the tricos. That said, I generally don't pug Hive, and in a 5 man.......sigh.....5 dps ships again, gumby, fleets, raptors, whatev.

Long story short, your best debuffs are always available to you. Fed scis get SA, and that's nice - but barring the vesta (which again I love) they're just not too hot for pve. Not that Bops are incredibly hot for pve either - but its a similar situation with a vesta - you have dps (not escort/raptor but hey - can't have it all). If you're outdamaging people in pve with your carrier -pets included- you simply have better gear/they're just bad. Don't get me wrong, I could rant and rave all day long with you about the dps centric nature of pve, but our ranting and raving won't change the state of the game at present.

DPS is the name of the PVE game, and sci's aint playing it. In pvp...well...you're required - and in that arena, the b'rel brings something that simply cannot be duplicated by any other ship, the heghta less so - and both can cloak. Nothing else meets the "can sci it up" and "can cloak" bar like the bops. But hey, maybe I'm missing something, you tell me. What sci do you want to throw that a bop can't throw? Hell, if we're talking pve in a sci boat, specifically kdf side....the ability to slot a commander and ltc tac while retaining subnuc and ss in a bop will likely give you higher single target dps for an stf, provided you don't pull aggro...and those lovely new negative threat part gen plasma infused consoles......might just convince me to put away my Karp and go to the bop for stfs. Just shift the boffs around to transition between aoe (probes) and single target (cubes/bosses structures - but if you keep thy3 you can run the aoe boffs against the structures and cubes anyway for epic kinetic lulz.

In PVP, sci is all about disable/cc (and of course your two "take em anywhere" debuffs"). Show me a sci boat, barring vesta, that can run as much of that at once (and in the case of the b'rel - most of it from absolute safety). I'm always down for a new build/boat.

(even if we invoke the specter of trico bomber groups in pve - tacs in escorts raptors still do it better-raaaaaage..but, i guess that's getting nerfed anyhow, so I'll have less to complain about. All this said, again, I , like you, love sci, and think people undervalue them - but one has to recognize that they're undervalued for a reason - even if people put their value just a tad lower than it actually is. It -is- telling though, that the best thing to happen to sci in a long time is to be given a ship than can play quasi escort..aint it.)

Last edited by kassahn; 02-01-2013 at 10:55 AM.
Empire Veteran
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,359
# 15
02-01-2013, 10:48 AM
I have to admit that the fact that not all the Vessels Available to the KDF can cloak bugs me a bit.

We've seen that in the various Canon shows that the Klingons had cloaking devices on pretty much every vessel that they owned even cargo ships and passenger transports.

The Cloaking device is a big part of the Klingons and one has to wonder why it would not be integrated into every possible vessel in service to the KDF?

Cryptic should offer a universal Standard Cloaking Console that's only available to KDF players that gives us the option to add cloaking to our vessels at the cost of a console slot.

(Maybe a Klingon House Rep System Reward Perhaps)

At 1st I use to think that it would be OP for all KDF vessels to have the clocking ability but that's not really the case; battle cloaking yes but standard cloaking no.

With all the stealth detection skills and buffs that are available to the player in game just having 50 power in auxiliary is more than enough to detect the average cloaked vessel from about 6 K out.

I think the real reason that not all KDF vessels can cloak is because the same option could not be applied to the Fed side and that Cryptic is just trying to avoid upsetting the larger faction and their money.

It's weird to try to apply realism to game based on a fictional IP but when you think about it the cloaking device is one of the Klingons greatest abilities and they would be trying to add it to every vessel that they had.

We were told that the Vo'Quv was too big of a vessel to have a cloaking device but then why can the Assimilated Vo'Quv Carrier Cloak?

And what's with this 80% cloak crap?

Your cloaking ability should = your stealth skills and buffs + your Auxiliary power level.

If you're willing to invest points and power into going undetected and player trying to find you should have to add just has much if not more to try to detect you.

For the Record:

Every vessel in service to the KDF in STO should have the option to be able to add cloaking to it.
Ensign
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 5
# 16
02-01-2013, 11:02 AM
A certain "big" fedboat can cloak. Que rage. Good thing it's trash, amiright fellas (lol)?
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,233
# 17
02-01-2013, 11:06 AM
Yes, DPS might be the king of the PvE game, but If I'm bringing high DPS myself and buffing the tacs damage as well the team has a higher DPS then if I just came as another tac.

In HO screw my damage (tho I still do plenty, I just drop the focus), I go full on shield assault. Tractor beam with a doff, tachyon beam, tykens, energy syphon, polarized distruptors, Sheild draining pets... Give the tacs bare hulls and HO is lightning fast. Edit: Hmm I should pick up some tets for HO come to think of it... but I'd be loath to give up my disruptor procs...)

Again, the vast majority of the STO population has no appreciation for what debuffs bring. All I hear is about how gimped they are. They allow your teammates to do amazing things. That is the point. If you aren't personally satisfied with the playstyle I understand entirely. It isn't for everyone. But a good sci is an asset, one that just doesn't math out easy in a parse.

There is a sad lack of good scis... but the same can be said of any class.
I once again match my character. Behold the power of PINK!

Vice Admiral Space Orphidian Possiblities Wizard

Last edited by kimmym; 02-01-2013 at 11:09 AM.
Ensign
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 5
# 18
02-01-2013, 11:39 AM
You'll strip shields faster with high wep energy weapons and energy siphon as your sci slots (losing tyk and tach for something entirely more useful). The shield drains in sci are patently useless.

OR- as a tac in a dps boat doing the same sans siphon. Tets /w tet glider also nice, but also dep on both flowcap and wep.

Has nothing to do with my personal satisfaction as a sci (again, my sci's are my favorites), just being blunt and open with what they can and cant do, what is and isn't useful.

Due to the gimped power levels the borg run, you can gib them with a ltc energy siphon alone...in a breen or a mvam, bop, vesta, while putting out more shield stripping energy damage from any range.

Doesn't mean that you or scis aren't useful, or that it doesn't get the job done. Obviously. To be fair, emer to shields, emer to weps, and cannon autoattacks get the pve job done.

Last edited by kassahn; 02-01-2013 at 11:47 AM. Reason: ` for something more usefuul
Empire Veteran
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,359
# 19
02-01-2013, 01:32 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by kassahn View Post
You'll strip shields faster with high wep energy weapons and energy siphon as your sci slots (losing tyk and tach for something entirely more useful). The shield drains in sci are patently useless.

OR- as a tac in a dps boat doing the same sans siphon. Tets /w tet glider also nice, but also dep on both flowcap and wep.

Has nothing to do with my personal satisfaction as a sci (again, my sci's are my favorites), just being blunt and open with what they can and cant do, what is and isn't useful.

Due to the gimped power levels the borg run, you can gib them with a ltc energy siphon alone...in a breen or a mvam, bop, vesta, while putting out more shield stripping energy damage from any range.

Doesn't mean that you or scis aren't useful, or that it doesn't get the job done. Obviously. To be fair, emer to shields, emer to weps, and cannon autoattacks get the pve job done.
My KDF Science main is set up for power drain and shield stripping and it does very well at both.

I like using the leach console with Energy Siphon 1 and Target Subsystems Shields 3 and Torpedo Spread with the Tholian Torpedo and a Tractor Beam 1 for good measure and I wreak havoc on targets power levels, my Aceton Assimilator is just overkill.

On a Side note:

Looking at the new Console that comes with the Jem'Hadar Dreadnought it just screams to be abused by a Science Captain with Sensor Scan, Sensor Analysts and Attack Pattern Beta??.. Defense , what Defense?
Ensign
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 5
# 20
02-04-2013, 10:55 AM
You may be doing well at both, but with the layout you mentioned a Tac would do it even better. Which is why Sci are undervalued. Not only is shield draining via sci ineffective compared to energy weapon damage, the vast majority of pve HP is hull, and pvp targets are effectively immune to all of our flowcap and grav.

The trouble, with the sci debuffs - say you're flying an escort in your sci to bring some deeps - is that the increases in dps from your debuff may not actually compensate your team for the loss of a tac in the same ship. I suppose an escort with tractor and siphon as it's sole sci skills (at lt lev) is probably the best pve use of sci....but doesn't that leave a bad taste in your mouth?

Last edited by kassahn; 02-04-2013 at 11:26 AM.
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