Rihannsu
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 774
# 131
02-01-2013, 03:08 PM
Only speaking for myself, when I flew a cannon escort, I usually sat in front of the target and rarely got bothered by it. If I did move, it was creaping forward or moving in reverse. Never had that much problem dying to anything. If I did get tagged, I'd do a quick evasive, hit my heals, and come back in.

For full disclosure, I was an eng character, with full cannons and usually attack pattern beta, cannon scatter volley, and torpedo spread for the first volley. I also managed to survive the plasma torp spread of death from the Borg, and I was in a defiant for all of this.

Also, pretty sure that escorts that fly around get more defence than a cruiser since they have a higher speed.

Ironically, the best match up of weapons to ships would be to have escorts have beams, since they should have to manuever around to survive and beams lets them do that while still doing damange. And then Cruisers should have duel cannons, since they can get up close, sit there and pound away at the enemy.
Joined September 2011
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Commander
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 307
# 132
02-01-2013, 03:28 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by malkarris View Post
Only speaking for myself, when I flew a cannon escort, I usually sat in front of the target and rarely got bothered by it. If I did move, it was creaping forward or moving in reverse. Never had that much problem dying to anything. If I did get tagged, I'd do a quick evasive, hit my heals, and come back in.

For full disclosure, I was an eng character, with full cannons and usually attack pattern beta, cannon scatter volley, and torpedo spread for the first volley. I also managed to survive the plasma torp spread of death from the Borg, and I was in a defiant for all of this.

Also, pretty sure that escorts that fly around get more defence than a cruiser since they have a higher speed.

Ironically, the best match up of weapons to ships would be to have escorts have beams, since they should have to manuever around to survive and beams lets them do that while still doing damange. And then Cruisers should have duel cannons, since they can get up close, sit there and pound away at the enemy.
I regret to not have made "Under heavy fire" bold, because that is the crux.
If left alone the Escort is plain best, but under attack Escorts are in trouble, which usually means moving or fleeing, which means losing some or all dps, et cetera.

Have an Eng Escort pilot aswell (in a Breen ship these days) and in retrospect I regret not having had much ability to use the Engineers improved tanking much, since Escort tanking always means moving and hence not always firing your DHCs.
Much happier with the Breen ship so I can actually survive moving slowly and taking a hit.

He's dead, Jim.

Last edited by lolimpicard; 02-01-2013 at 03:31 PM.
Captain
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 1,817
# 133
02-01-2013, 03:50 PM
I use cannons and Beams in Escorts and cruisers

Cannons outdamage beams by a large amount but are balenced in escorts, i see no problems there

Beams need a little more Beef to be equal to the Same damage as cannons overall
They arnt

Beams also need a rapid fire like cannons have For Procs

Beams also need a equal power drain as cannons

Beams also deserve a Beam Turret for Procs
Jellico....Engineer.....Stargazer KDF Tac
Saphire.. Science.....Ko'el Rom Kdf Tac
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JJ-Verse will never be Canon or considered Lore...It will always be JJ-Verse
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Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 6,766
# 134
02-01-2013, 04:02 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by darkjeff View Post
The difference is that both beams and cannons are most effective at close ranges, at 1 km and 2 km respectively.

Both beam and cannon users are thus encouraged to get closer - but because base damage is so low on beams compared to cannons, they actually have stronger encouragement to get up close.

If beams had no drop off up to 5 km, then suddenly their ideal range is 5 km, and it really does become a "beams distance", "cannons higher damage but closer" issue. As it currently stands, all weapons are encouraged to be used up close.

(I'm not in a cruiser by the way, my last experience with beams was a single Phaser DBB in my Vesta for Subsystem Targeting and Overload, and the Experimental Romulan Plasma Beam Array in my JHEC for the Hyperflux and Overload. Improving beams won't really change anything for me other than improving STF PUGs.)
The real difiner is the BOff buffs availible to cannons are better than any beam buff (outside of BO) and the horrible drain mechanic that beams have in general.

Beams actually perform at the same % as cannons up close (meaning 100%) but also suffer less at ranges 7-10km, by a factor of nearly 25%. Beams are meant to be good up close and at long range with both weapon types being near equal in the middle ranges.
The most recent testing by some reflect this as true.
So the issue lies (imo) in the beams drain under constant fire use and the lack of supporti e BOff abilities.

Starting a beams drain at 5km and out will only cause the rise of runner builds that spend hier time straight lining away from a foe to keep them at range for the duration of combat and beams will still suffer from poor drain cuasing them to appear far worse in comparison to DHCs.
Escorts would respond to runner builds by using TB, GPGs and any other mode of movement debuffs, soon he cries of movement debuffs are too OP would rise up from the masses. No problem would be solved.
Richard Hamilton (1975-2014)
goodbye good friend. We will see you in the DMZ in the sky oneday, save a shot for us.
Rihannsu
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 774
# 135
02-01-2013, 04:35 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by lolimpicard View Post
I regret to not have made "Under heavy fire" bold, because that is the crux.
If left alone the Escort is plain best, but under attack Escorts are in trouble, which usually means moving or fleeing, which means losing some or all dps, et cetera.

Have an Eng Escort pilot aswell (in a Breen ship these days) and in retrospect I regret not having had much ability to use the Engineers improved tanking much, since Escort tanking always means moving and hence not always firing your DHCs.
Much happier with the Breen ship so I can actually survive moving slowly and taking a hit.
Sorry, I should have made it more clear, I did survive heavy fire, many times and the only movement I did was creaping in from 10 KM, and then reversing back out to about 5KM, and then going back in. Again, I was a eng captain, so a tac might not be able to do this, but most of the tanking skills are BOFF based, not captain.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bitemepwe View Post
Beams actually perform at the same % as cannons up close (meaning 100%) but also suffer less at ranges 7-10km, by a factor of nearly 25%. Beams are meant to be good up close and at long range with both weapon types being near equal in the middle ranges.
The most recent testing by some reflect this as true.
So the issue lies (imo) in the beams drain under constant fire use and the lack of supporti e BOff abilities.
I don't argue that the beam energy drain is a problem, however, I question what you are saying about beam damage performing the same percent as cannon damage. Yes, beam damage is at a higher percent of total beam damage at longer range than cannon damage percent, but that is not comparing the same thing. It is comparing percent of total beam damage to percent of total cannon damage. Cannons outdamage beams out to 8 KM (Per this guy.) So the only area where beams are better than cannons is between 8 to 10 KM. Which is a pretty narrow band. If you want more equality, either cannon drop off needs to be increased, or beam drop off needs to be decreased, so that cannons rule inside 5 KM and beams rule outside of it. Actually if beam drop off didn't start until about 5KM, that would probably do it.
Joined September 2011
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# 136
02-01-2013, 04:41 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by malkarris View Post
Sorry, I should have made it more clear, I did survive heavy fire, many times and the only movement I did was creaping in from 10 KM, and then reversing back out to about 5KM, and then going back in. Again, I was a eng captain, so a tac might not be able to do this, but most of the tanking skills are BOFF based, not captain.



I don't argue that the beam energy drain is a problem, however, I question what you are saying about beam damage performing the same percent as cannon damage. Yes, beam damage is at a higher percent of total beam damage at longer range than cannon damage percent, but that is not comparing the same thing. It is comparing percent of total beam damage to percent of total cannon damage. Cannons outdamage beams out to 8 KM (Per this guy.) So the only area where beams are better than cannons is between 8 to 10 KM. Which is a pretty narrow band. If you want more equality, either cannon drop off needs to be increased, or beam drop off needs to be decreased, so that cannons rule inside 5 KM and beams rule outside of it. Actually if beam drop off didn't start until about 5KM, that would probably do it.
check out the new testing in the PvP section done by Maelwyss (Bareel posts a link) for a more up to date series of results.
Even then though the difference is defined more by the Cannon BOff buffs availible to them.
Richard Hamilton (1975-2014)
goodbye good friend. We will see you in the DMZ in the sky oneday, save a shot for us.
Commander
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 307
# 137
02-01-2013, 04:54 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by malkarris View Post
Sorry, I should have made it more clear, I did survive heavy fire, many times and the only movement I did was creaping in from 10 KM, and then reversing back out to about 5KM, and then going back in. Again, I was a eng captain, so a tac might not be able to do this, but most of the tanking skills are BOFF based, not captain.
No, no - you're spot on, sacrificing just a tiny bit dps and getting Emergency Power to Shields instead of to Weapons with an Eng captain works wonders, but your dps overall will be ~20% lower than a Tacs
(mostly due to not having his crazy damage bonus abilities, altho the system-power tricks an Engineer has help).
And now, come on - how many times has Miracle Worker saved your ship?
Most will admit to being saved by it a lot, regardless of the ship type they use, but few are as grateful as the Eng Escorts!

He's dead, Jim.
Captain
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 3,553
# 138
02-01-2013, 06:49 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by lolimpicard View Post
No, no - you're spot on, sacrificing just a tiny bit dps and getting Emergency Power to Shields instead of to Weapons with an Eng captain works wonders, but your dps overall will be ~20% lower than a Tacs
(mostly due to not having his crazy damage bonus abilities, altho the system-power tricks an Engineer has help).
And now, come on - how many times has Miracle Worker saved your ship?
Most will admit to being saved by it a lot, regardless of the ship type they use, but few are as grateful as the Eng Escorts!
Just as an add-on to this: FPE with an Engineer as captain. That ship. Insanely hard for NPCs to destroy. FPEs are the most naturally tanky out of all the current escorts in game (just on paper, in actual combat might be a different story), so if you add on an engi captain, sufficed to say, it takes quite a while to destroy you, if you're ever destroyed at all.

Also it's BOff layout makes it perfect for a full cannon build. Sufficed to say, in my FPE, my engi captain can GET IT DONE. But the only catch here is that it's not as much fun to fly as my Odyssey XD.
It is said the best weapon is one that is never fired. I disagree. The best weapon is one you only have to fire... once.
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Captain
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 2,245
# 139
02-01-2013, 07:27 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by hereticknight085 View Post
Just as an add-on to this: FPE with an Engineer as captain. That ship. Insanely hard for NPCs to destroy. FPEs are the most naturally tanky out of all the current escorts in game (just on paper, in actual combat might be a different story), so if you add on an engi captain, sufficed to say, it takes quite a while to destroy you, if you're ever destroyed at all.

Also it's BOff layout makes it perfect for a full cannon build. Sufficed to say, in my FPE, my engi captain can GET IT DONE. But the only catch here is that it's not as much fun to fly as my Odyssey XD.
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Rihannsu
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 774
# 140
02-01-2013, 07:43 PM
RE: Miracle Worker, I honestly don't know, but from what I remember, not that often. Then again my memory is foggy often about such things, so I'll give the point.

RE: the new testing data, if I got the right link, that's comparing a duel heavy cannon with a duel beam bank. And that does look better, but I was talking about beam arrays. Assuming that the same drop off applies to beam arrays as to DBBs then DHCs are the best from 1 to 4 KM, DBB are best from 5 to 10 KM, and beam arrays are always last until 7 or 8 KM, when they overtake DHCs. I still think that just looking at the range, beam arrays should star their drop at 5 KM. That gives them slightly less range advantage over the DBBs, give a bit more room to fend off cannons, and remain close but below DBBs out to 10KM. Again, just my opinion, but in the question of range, I think it would help.
Joined September 2011
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