Captain
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 2,524
# 101
02-02-2013, 05:07 AM
Okay, put the pitchforks, torches, and nerf-bats away-the Bug's OP, but that doesn't mean handicapping is an answer.

The problem it reflects is bigger than two Uni slots, 5 tac consoles, fighter-grade turn rates and cruiser grade shields with more hull than any other Escort.

The Problem is that neither faction's got a comparable ride, and the imbalance goes further since one faction comes close...and the other one is kept gimped and hamstrung in what is available to them.

Maybe it's time to start looking at POSITIVE solutions, instead of calling for yet-another-nerf that will be applied ham-handedly and won't accomplish the intended outcome of correcting a fundamental imbalance.

I have a solution to propose.

Bugships get a disproportionate benefit from a fairly common set of parts-the Jem'hadar parts, obtainable through story missions and now, upgradeable if you have the Lobi/i.e. cash to open enough Lockboxes.

We've seen what are called "Exclusive" consoles (Vet ship, bort, etc.), how about just tagging the Bugships so that they can ONLY use JHAS set bonuses, they can't use KHG or MACO or Omega, just Jem set. That would balance things RIGHT out-Bugship drivers get their OP ride, but it's not able to use the same cool toys the other kids get to-it can ONLY derive set bonuses from Jem Ha'dar gear.

i.e. just set it up so that the MACO/Omega/KHG/Assimilated/Rommie/AEgis set bonuses don't work on Lockbox ships and/or the JHAS.
"when you're out of Birds of Prey, you're out of ships."
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,674
# 102
02-02-2013, 05:40 AM
Just give my Defiant the Patrol Escort config and it's end of discussion.

Don't nerf the JHAS, just buff the other Escort options.


Click here and here if you are interested in learning more about PvP.
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 946
# 103
02-02-2013, 05:44 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by snoge00f View Post
Just give my Defiant the Patrol Escort config and it's end of discussion.

Don't nerf the JHAS, just buff the other Escort options.
would be fine with that.... some other shiptypes also could use some uni-slots f.e. btw... many ships out there outclassed by newer models (galaxy in every variant except fleet-r maybe is prime example i guess) ...

atrox/recluse is another example. and one that nicely shows the difference between lockbox and z-store/"vanilla"- ships that could use some love ...

Klink: House of Beautiful - J'Luc / Rommie: Lag Industries - D'Waste
Join Date Hoster: Dec 2011 - Join Date Symbiont: 1403 A.D. and not a dull moment
PLZ ADD MARKS-TO-CHOOSE PACKS AND AFK/LEAVER PENALTY TO PVP PUBLIC QUES (not privates!)
AND DON'T TOUCH OUR DIL!!!

Last edited by wast33; 02-02-2013 at 05:48 AM.
Starfleet Veteran
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 597
# 104
02-02-2013, 07:43 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by playhard88 View Post
I'm getting a litte tired about this topic, so lets made some points clear. This ship need a balance is right, but not as hard as all the QQ are screaming

I will quote one of the qq'ers post for make this easy:



The Jem'hadar attack ship is the only special ship that don't have any unique console/weapon/Ability (galor, d'kora, tholian orb, tholian recluse, temporal ships, etc...all of them have something "special"), so what can they add to the ship for make it interesting? stats.
jem does not need it.[/quote]

1 - Yes, is right, defiant have 17 and jemmy have 20. But defiant have the cloacking ability, jem'hadar have no speciall ability. Maybe 18-19 is a good turn rate value for balance, 1 point of BASE TURN rate is a huge diference for and escort [/quote]
cloaking will work once, maybe on a respwn you can use it again.[/quote]


2 - Irrelevant, we all know that escorts survialbly depends 100% on shield tanking and speed, a litle more of hull is totaly irrelevant, that won't make u "OP".[/quote] well the jem does have 2 copies of epts 1 with an rsp as well as he 1 and tss2[/quote]

3 - Yes but other escort can (and should) stack 2 o 3 Field generator consoles, in the end the jem'hadar is the escort with less shield in the game.[/quote] i dont know where you got this info. i never ran a feild gen on my escourts.[/quote]

4 - So? There are plenty of ships in this game with 1 or 2 Universal boffs, and 99% of the jemhadar captians use the same layout as the fleet patrol escort. I see no problem here.[/quote] again it comes down to turn rate with healing as well as an rsp. my jem ship has 59.3 turn rate, and thats not counting on a boost from maco sheilds. or even when i use omega.[/quote]

5 - Defiant have 5 too (plus can use the cloack for an deadly alpha strike), and i don't see anybody crying about that.[/quote] again that cloak is used once and then you have a wasted console slot.[/quote]

And what about the wells? is better than any other sci ship in the game and i don't see the QQ Army talking about it. [/quote] wells is not an escourt, besides recluse is much better but thats another topic.
[/quote]
There are more important issues with pvp balance, so please stop the flood in the balance topics so we can keep them clean as posible[/quote] hey man i think you need to learn the game we call pvp. put a pure noob in a defaint, watch him die is about 3 secs. put an even biger noob in the jem and he will die in about 10. have to account for his rsp.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Jan 2013
Posts: 141
# 105
02-02-2013, 09:10 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by starcommando101 View Post
Heck, I'm not asking for the god of all nerfs here, I'm asking for the Devs to look at the turnrate. Why? Because to compensate for not having a special console, it has superior hull and shields of any escort (not escort carriers) and a really high turn rate. Maybe nerf the turn rate one or two points (after a discussion with the pvp community to see what is the best decision) seeing as one point base on an escort is really huge.

It will still have the highest turn rate among escorts in general, and the shields and hull, but be on par with them as well for not having a unique console.
Honestly, if you gave it the same turn rate as a Defiant or an Escort Retrofit (17) it would still arguably be the best escort.

1. It would still be in a three-way tie for having the best manueverability.

2. It would have the strongest hull (+400 vs the Patrol, +1400 vs the Tactical, and +4140 vs the Escort Retrofit).

3. It would have the strongest shields with a modifier of 1 (vs .99 for the Patrol, .9 for the Tactical, and .77 for the Escort Retrofit)

4. It would have the best BOff setup, though since it's most common setups would be the same as either the Patrol Escort or Escort Retrofit, it's only a slight edge in flexibility over those two. It's unquestionably better than the Tactical Escort though.

5. It would be tied with the Patrol and Escort Retrofit for 4 Engineering consoles, better than the 3 on the Tactical.

6. It would have the worst number of science consoles at one instead of 2 for the others one of two areas where it is not the best or tied for first place.

7. It would be tied with the Tactical Escort for having the best tactical consoles.

8. Since the Tactical Escort is the only one for which a unique universal console exists, that is an advantage for it, and the only other way in which the JHAS would not still be the best or tied for first place. The Escort Retrofit has it's own universal console, but it's usable on any escort, and none of the fleet versions come with the consoles -- in all cases a lower level ship needs to be purchased in addition to the fleet one.


The JHAS would still be the "best" escort in almost every respect.

I didn't include the MVAE in the comparison, because it's a fundamentally different ship than the others. The Fleet Tactical Escort, Patrol Escort, and Escort Retrofit are all comparable, but with it's emphasis on science the MVAE is really a different thing entirely.

In it's basic mode, the MVAE is still inferior to the JHAS in almost every respect, but it would have the potential to beat the JHAS in turning in it's other modes if the JHAS were dropped down to 17 turn rate. Then the question would be whether the penalties the MVAE pays in it's other modes are enough to offset it's turn rate.
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 3,400
# 106
02-02-2013, 09:15 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by inktomi19 View Post
The JHAS would still be the "best" escort in almost every respect.

I understand the points you and others have made, but I can't help but wonder why people would think the above isn't WAI by the dev team?


Why do we continually see threads on the JHAS, but not for ships like the Wells and Recluse that are clearly at the top of their ship class as well?

Lt. Commander
Join Date: Jan 2013
Posts: 141
# 107
02-02-2013, 10:04 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ussultimatum View Post
I understand the points you and others have made, but I can't help but wonder why people would think the above isn't WAI by the dev team?


Why do we continually see threads on the JHAS, but not for ships like the Wells and Recluse that are clearly at the top of their ship class as well?
Other science ships can still be very successful, even against teams that include a Wells, because most of a science ship's effectiveness is from it's BOff abilities.

Turn Rate is by far the most important attribute for an escort, and the current JHAS effectively gets a free RCS console as compared to other escorts in addition to it's other advantages.

The Wells does have the potential to carry a lot more science BOffs, and only has to give up the tactical LT which other sci ships have to do it, but there are a lot of shared cooldowns with science powers, and they are buffed by a lot of different consoles, so the Wells still needs to specialize like other science ships.

Basically, it's better, but not so much better that no other science ship can ever match it.

The problem with the JHAS is that even if you dropped it's turn rate to 17, it's still a better ship in almost every way. But because it's turn rate is so high, other escorts can't even compete.

An escort's role on a team is to be the killer. If one escort can easily keep another in it's 45? arc, while at the same time easily staying out of an opposing escort's own 45? arc, that ship gives it's team a major advantage.

Science ships have a control role, and there just isn't as much disparity there. Nothing a Wells has stops it from being controlled the way that a JHAS' maneuverability can stop it from getting cannons lined up on it.

I've ended up in 1-1's with Wellses (I know 1-1 isn't everything) and beat them in an LRSV, and in a Vesta. Not even the fleet versions. It really just came down to me getting my powers off first. I'm not going to beat a bug if I'm in a Patrol or Tactical Escort though. I can get their hull to about half sometimes, but their going to have about twice as much time on target against me as I will against them just due to the turn rate.

I don't know, maybe the Wells is a little over the top too. It's just not so far over the top as the JHAS is.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Nov 2012
Posts: 114
# 108
02-02-2013, 10:04 AM
Some of the vestas can be so called OP if set up right, but i dont complain about it. The mobius may be the best "all around" escort, jem bug may be best at turn and attack, but mobius can stack mass shield cap, 4 tac consoles, cannons,,2 univerals Boffs one being a LT commander as well as the time consoles it can equip, but nobody complains about it.

Off topic ,,does anybody know that key bind you type in so you can just click enemy ship then type the letter T in team chat to call the target? The ones ive been told dont seem to work.
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 337
# 109
02-02-2013, 10:28 AM
I don't think anyone wants the JHAS nerfed but since it's been released and ever more prevalent in PvP since they've been reintroduced, we'd like the rest of the T5, C-store and Lockbox ships reviewed and brought in line.

If that means buffing some stats and or additional console slots, then so be it.

Especially when there are a number of high-end C-store ships that have already been outdated by newer ones. Even the Fleet versions don't really hold a competative edge.

I suppose when they raise the Rank/Skill Cap and add the Romulan faction, they may introduce tougher ships or the ability to modify current ships but until then, the JHAS has been like bringing a gun to a knife fight.

The worst arguement for the JHAS is "well, if it's so OP then grind the EC and get yourself one and stop complaining."
Commander
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 369
# 110
02-02-2013, 10:55 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by doomicile View Post
I don't think anyone wants the JHAS nerfed but since it's been released and ever more prevalent in PvP since they've been reintroduced, we'd like the rest of the T5, C-store and Lockbox ships reviewed and brought in line.

If that means buffing some stats and or additional console slots, then so be it.

Especially when there are a number of high-end C-store ships that have already been outdated by newer ones. Even the Fleet versions don't really hold a competative edge.

I suppose when they raise the Rank/Skill Cap and add the Romulan faction, they may introduce tougher ships or the ability to modify current ships but until then, the JHAS has been like bringing a gun to a knife fight.

The worst arguement for the JHAS is "well, if it's so OP then grind the EC and get yourself one and stop complaining."
You said you don't think anyone wants it nerfed... What is this thread for then?
The Average PvP player

1) Teamwork and timing is #1
2) You cannot "Kirk It" in every ship
3) You are going to die, just get back up
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is Off
HTML code is Off


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 06:55 PM.