Commander
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 369
# 111
02-02-2013, 11:58 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by inktomi19 View Post
Honestly, if you gave it the same turn rate as a Defiant or an Escort Retrofit (17) it would still arguably be the best escort.

1. It would still be in a three-way tie for having the best manueverability.

2. It would have the strongest hull (+400 vs the Patrol, +1400 vs the Tactical, and +4140 vs the Escort Retrofit).

3. It would have the strongest shields with a modifier of 1 (vs .99 for the Patrol, .9 for the Tactical, and .77 for the Escort Retrofit)

4. It would have the best BOff setup, though since it's most common setups would be the same as either the Patrol Escort or Escort Retrofit, it's only a slight edge in flexibility over those two. It's unquestionably better than the Tactical Escort though.

5. It would be tied with the Patrol and Escort Retrofit for 4 Engineering consoles, better than the 3 on the Tactical.

6. It would have the worst number of science consoles at one instead of 2 for the others one of two areas where it is not the best or tied for first place.

7. It would be tied with the Tactical Escort for having the best tactical consoles.

8. Since the Tactical Escort is the only one for which a unique universal console exists, that is an advantage for it, and the only other way in which the JHAS would not still be the best or tied for first place. The Escort Retrofit has it's own universal console, but it's usable on any escort, and none of the fleet versions come with the consoles -- in all cases a lower level ship needs to be purchased in addition to the fleet one.


The JHAS would still be the "best" escort in almost every respect.

I didn't include the MVAE in the comparison, because it's a fundamentally different ship than the others. The Fleet Tactical Escort, Patrol Escort, and Escort Retrofit are all comparable, but with it's emphasis on science the MVAE is really a different thing entirely.

In it's basic mode, the MVAE is still inferior to the JHAS in almost every respect, but it would have the potential to beat the JHAS in turning in it's other modes if the JHAS were dropped down to 17 turn rate. Then the question would be whether the penalties the MVAE pays in it's other modes are enough to offset it's turn rate.
It needs something to compensate for the lack of a special console or ability. Any further needs would be discussed and tested on tribble.
The Average PvP player

1) Teamwork and timing is #1
2) You cannot "Kirk It" in every ship
3) You are going to die, just get back up
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 341
# 112
02-02-2013, 11:59 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by starcommando101 View Post
You said you don't think anyone wants it nerfed... What is this thread for then?
To bring this situation to the Devs' attention?
Commander
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 369
# 113
02-02-2013, 12:02 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by doomicile View Post
To bring this situation to the Devs' attention?
About a possible nerf
The Average PvP player

1) Teamwork and timing is #1
2) You cannot "Kirk It" in every ship
3) You are going to die, just get back up
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 341
# 114
02-02-2013, 12:15 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by starcommando101 View Post
It needs something to compensate for the lack of a special console or ability. Any further needs would be discussed and tested on tribble.
Now that I think about it, the JHAS does get a special console ability; "Victory Is Life". Only, it requires the Jem Space set, which is now upgradeable. Which means you have to use the Jem Deflector, Engines and Shields but with them you get two passives and an activatable power.

You lose a Sci Console slot and gain a 5th Tac Slot and a 4th Engineering slot for compensation.

It's the equivelant of having the best loadout combination of all three Vesta or Oddysey ships rolled into one and the console bonuses to boot.

The problem is if you don't use the Jem'Hadar Space set, the potential to max out the best of all possible worlds is apparent.

Last edited by doomicile; 02-02-2013 at 12:18 PM.
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,387
# 115
02-02-2013, 12:33 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by starcommando101 View Post
It needs something to compensate for the lack of a special console or ability. Any further needs would be discussed and tested on tribble.
also i do not agree with you in some points i have to state that you really seem to deserve that avatar .
one of the points i agree with is: so many seem to be upset about the setup (hehe) of the bug.
to prove or not to prove this in the end can only be provided by a closer look from dev's.

so *bump* and all relax a bit in your chairs


Quote:
Originally Posted by doomicile View Post
Now that I think about it, the JHAS does get a special console ability; "Victory Is Life". Only, it requires the Jem Space set, which is now upgradeable. Which means you have to use the Jem Deflector, Engines and Shields but with them you get two passives and an activatable power.

You lose a Sci Console slot and gain a 5th Tac Slot and a 4th Engineering slot for compensation.

It's the equivelant of having the best loadout combination of all three Vesta or Oddysey ships rolled into one and the console bonuses to boot.

The problem is if you don't use the Jem'Hadar Space set, the potential to max out the best of all possible worlds is apparent.
... and now on all other jem-ships and the galor (the "oneway to cardi-weaps" ship ^^...) from the start... not really a point . also there are other sets with 2 set-3 bonuses, like borg or ferengi... just equip adapted maco and u got a torp console extra (set-2 bonus?)......

Klink: House of Beautiful - J'Luc/Rom: Lag Industries - D'Waste/Fed-Sci: Lag Industries - IAM
Join Date Hoster: Dec 2011 - Join Date Symbiont: 1403 A.D. and not a dull moment
PvP improvements, since 2010 lol
/50+ Fleet-, Lobi- and Lockboxships=unreclaimable trash

Last edited by wast33; 02-02-2013 at 12:55 PM.
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 341
# 116
02-02-2013, 12:58 PM
The Multipurpose and Tachyon mine console are not exclusive to the D'Kora. The swarm missiles are a joke with a 2min CD and the EMP Burst ability requires very specific positioning and isn't particularly effective anyway. All the Battle Modue 3000 console does is marginally increase weapons and engines power, which on a cruiser doesn't amount to much. The set bonuses aren't even combat-related.

Don't get me wrong, the marauder is a good ship. Probably one of the best Battle Cruisers there is but it doesn't have a significant impact on PvP since Battle Cruisers are irrelevant.
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,387
# 117
02-02-2013, 01:08 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by doomicile View Post
The Multipurpose and Tachyon mine console are not exclusive to the D'Kora.
...but the no.2 set-3 bonus is or am i wrong on that? ^^... also jem-set can be equipped on any ship of right tier... it's only the vic-is-life thingie that's only available on stated ships (and can be "emulated" on any ship with a doff), or am i wrong again?

Quote:
Originally Posted by doomicile View Post
The swarm missiles are a joke with a 2min CD and the EMP Burst ability requires very specific positioning and isn't particularly effective anyway. All the Battle Modue 3000 console does is marginally increase weapons and engines power, which on a cruiser doesn't amount to much. The set bonuses aren't even combat-related.

Don't get me wrong, the marauder is a good ship. Probably one of the best Battle Cruisers there is but it doesn't have a significant impact on PvP since Battle Cruisers are irrelevant.
you got concerns on that set, make a thread ... indeed it is a special set which gives at least one special bonus to a dedicated ship. just like time set, vesta set... those two f.e. can only be used on dedicated ships, or am i so totally wrong?

i don't want to offense, but indeed there are other sets that are just at the same level as jem set from point of bonus-countings... nothing about quality of those (from this point of view borg is best, cause it grants it's 2 set-3 bonusses to any ship you equip it on and you even can make it a 4 piece set with cutting beam. only 2 other omega-set-thingies needed and you get something like a "6-piece-7/8?-bonusses-set-hybrid-monster" on any ship).
regarding ships/sets i guess, both been held on "different"-sheets and should be merged/stated as well, as already happened regarding rom-rep sets.
i don't want to troll or such, but i can recall many, me as well, didn't like the answer ...

edit: in my opinion d'koras are not obsolete. some keep on kicking my "lower-back" or tank like from hell. but there's also agreat diversitiy in shipdesigns you can turn into something very similar to a heavy (!) escort (one of the best mobius f.e.)...
to conclude: i like the sets, i like my bug, but i LUUUUUV my mirror-bop. even if it gets kicked it's damn sexy

Klink: House of Beautiful - J'Luc/Rom: Lag Industries - D'Waste/Fed-Sci: Lag Industries - IAM
Join Date Hoster: Dec 2011 - Join Date Symbiont: 1403 A.D. and not a dull moment
PvP improvements, since 2010 lol
/50+ Fleet-, Lobi- and Lockboxships=unreclaimable trash

Last edited by wast33; 02-02-2013 at 02:36 PM.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Jan 2013
Posts: 141
# 118
02-02-2013, 03:11 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by starcommando101 View Post
It needs something to compensate for the lack of a special console or ability. Any further needs would be discussed and tested on tribble.
The Patrol Escort, Escort Retrofit, and Aquarius Destroyer don't have any unique consoles or abilities either. The only advantage any of those ships has over the JHAS is a second science console, and two of the three start with far weaker shields (.72 modifier) so they need that science slot to have even adequate protection. Other than that, none of those ships has any advantage over the JHAS.

Even if you dropped the JHAS' ridiculous turn rate to 17, it's easily better than any of the ships which don't have a special console.

The only fed escorts which have a special console are the Defiant, and the MVAE.

Compared to the JHAS, the Defiant has slightly less hull and shields, and one fewer engineering console but one more science console, which would add up to it being a slightly weaker ship. In the Defiant's favor, it can cloak (if it gives up a console slot). But the Defiant has by far the worst BOff arrangement on an escort -- bad enough that many players will choose a Patrol Escort over it.

If you imagine there is no JHAS for a second, many players are willing to give up the Defiant's cloak to avoid it's bad BOff setup (not to mention the players who already run Defiants without the cloak to avoid losing that console slot). The JHAS, even at 17 turn rate, would be a better ship than either a Patrol Escort or a Defiant, so it would be an even better alternative to a Defiant with a cloak. So the JHAS is already compensated for not having a cloak available.
Commander
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 369
# 119
02-02-2013, 03:15 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by inktomi19 View Post
The Patrol Escort, Escort Retrofit, and Aquarius Destroyer don't have any unique consoles or abilities either. The only advantage any of those ships has over the JHAS is a second science console, and two of the three start with far weaker shields (.72 modifier) so they need that science slot to have even adequate protection. Other than that, none of those ships has any advantage over the JHAS.

Even if you dropped the JHAS' ridiculous turn rate to 17, it's easily better than any of the ships which don't have a special console.

The only fed escorts which have a special console are the Defiant, and the MVAE.

Compared to the JHAS, the Defiant has slightly less hull and shields, and one fewer engineering console but one more science console, which would add up to it being a slightly weaker ship. In the Defiant's favor, it can cloak (if it gives up a console slot). But the Defiant has by far the worst BOff arrangement on an escort -- bad enough that many players will choose a Patrol Escort over it.

If you imagine there is no JHAS for a second, many players are willing to give up the Defiant's cloak to avoid it's bad BOff setup (not to mention the players who already run Defiants without the cloak to avoid losing that console slot). The JHAS, even at 17 turn rate, would be a better ship than either a Patrol Escort or a Defiant, so it would be an even better alternative to a Defiant with a cloak. So the JHAS is already compensated for not having a cloak available.
Exactly why it is in need of a nerf.
The Average PvP player

1) Teamwork and timing is #1
2) You cannot "Kirk It" in every ship
3) You are going to die, just get back up
Empire Veteran
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 595
# 120
02-02-2013, 03:22 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by starcommando101 View Post
you still dont get it do you... the bug is op. look at the comments before you, come up with a valid argument to explain to me without calling me or anyone a noob or nooblet or any variation of noob and THEN come back and respond. and I said of EQUAL skill, obviously bug captains of great skill, or any great captain knows their strength and weaknesses and prepared for that before hand.

I have both the JHAS and the fleet tactical escort retrofit, I use the first on a klingon toon and the second on a fed one... both characters have the same traits and very similar skill.

the better turn rate of the JHAS helps in 1 vs 1 scenario; a many vs many scenario is very different and the JHAS pay its worse shield.

I think that isn't the bug ship too strong, but the fed ship disadvantaged by it's boffs layout... In pvp the best build for an escort is IMHO only cannons based (no torpedoes) for a greater alpha strike, so 3 tactical station (like in the fed ship) are a waste...
The best BOFFs layout is the one with a cmd tactical station, lt cmd tactical station, a lt sci station, a lt eng station and a sci or eng ensign station. This layout let you have 2 TT, 2 CRF, 2xAPO and 1 APB or APD, plus sci and eng abilities to buff/heal shield and regenerate the hull. in pvp you do not need others tactical abilities... this is why the 3 tactical station of the tactical escort restrofit are (IMHO) a waste.


On more thought: in pvp weapons, consoles and doffs are very very important... there is one reason why my JHAS is more dangerous than my FTER and that reason is the 4x
DHCs [acc]x3, 3xturrets [acc]x3, purple consoles... everything is MK XII and yes, I payed a lot, lot, lot of EC to buy the JHAS, weapos, consoles and doffs. The fed toon has good consoles and weapons, but not so good.
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