Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,495
# 11
02-02-2013, 12:24 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by borgresearcher View Post
compare a cruiser to a carrier. seems fair ? cruisers should have something to compensate that something they dont have.

yes noob, on the game you say "failaxy" and "failoddy" but here you say that cruisers are ok, you are just another escort handler affraid of getting kicked by a bigger ship, give me a cruiser that is as good to engys as the jem bug is to tacs, oh sorry, you cant =/


cruisers have 8 weap slots, but thats not energy efficient as you can see here

# Weapons--- Total Drain / Resulting Power--- Damage per Weapon--- Total damage
1---> -0 / 100--- 200%--- 200%
2---> -10 / 90--- 180%--- 360%
3---> -20 / 80--- 160%--- 480%
4---> -30 / 70--- 140%--- 560%
5---> -40 / 60--- 120%--- 600%
6---> -50 / 50--- 100%--- 600%
7---> -60 / 40--- 80%--- 560%
8---> -70 / 30--- 60%--- 480%
, thats why the default set ever comes with 1 torpedo fore and aft, cruisers resilliency is not compensated by its lack of maneuverability

all ships have some unique extras

escorts = dual heavy cannons cappable
sci vessles = sensor analisys
carrier = 2 hangar bays and some of them with more hull than cruisers
bop = fully universal stations, crazy turn rate and battle cloak
cruisers ... huh ? what ? not capable of dhc, no sensor analisys, no hangar bays, no universal stations, no crazy turn rate AT ALL, and you guys say its ok ? please

and the ships who benefit from 2 of those benefits, will loose something, as the vesta do with dhc and hangar, but 27800 hull and 1.35 shield mod

so what the cruisers gain ?
how can everybody not ride a cruiser and say its underpowered, but when its time to call that to the forum you say its ok ? obvious, escort users are affraid of the time when cruisers get what they deserve and finally show its pottencial

carriers dont loose nothing on its gain of 2 hangar slots, so my idea was to add something to the rest of the cruisers, making them balanced compared to carriers and not underpowered, which people think it is On the game
Part of this gets back to initial faction design. I mentioned in another thread in another sub-forum, but I'll paraphrase here:

KDF = Hit&Run, think literal Birds of Prey dive bombing for food.

Fed = Wolf pack, not the fastest, but have highest endurance and use teamwork for a kill.

Along those lines KDF Battle Cruisers were designed for movement, where Fed Cruisers were designed for lumbering support platforms. The KDF BCs are not weak, but some of the strongest options in the game for high pressure damage w/survivability.

Fyi, there's an Oddy varient w/sensor analysis, and another w/Saucer Sep for increased movement.

Back the inital Fed/KDF design, Cryptic changed its revenue stream to include ship sales. This led to hybrid sales and buffs to lotto/pay items. So things changed:

All revenue ships got better shields and hulls and boff layouts. Many got turnrate boosts as well.

Hybrids like Destroyers got rolled out with "Kirk" like Boff/defense mods, meaning they can put out DPS while self sustaining defenses and/or some CC/Debuffs.

Sci Shield Stripping Boffs were nerfed, so the applied pressure damage from BAs weakened. Various abilities over time via Doff/Rep system also contributed to all ships ability to sustain themselves.

BAs attributes w/FaW and FaW fixes/changes are also an issue.

Further, APO extending defensive bonus past initial 5 seconds and cooldown based Doffs have boosted Escort defensive capabilities.

But, there have been some boosts to Fed Cruisers repair capabilities, including but not limited to ES doffs.

Imo, the APO defense should be fixed to 5 second duration and the BAs procs need to be fixed. Sci shield stripping Boff powers need a boost. Then see how things are. The cat is out of the bag as far as hybrid ships blurring Faction Uniqueness, I'd just like to see them blurred less.

Lastly, Raiders have been the least boosted ships imo. Better to compare base Fed Cruiser design model to $KDF BCs, $Sci and $Escort and $Hybrid ships.
Rihannsu
Join Date: Nov 2012
Posts: 13
# 12
02-02-2013, 02:47 PM
I dont think, that cruisers are to weak. The real Problem is the survibility of escorts. They can resist to much damage in comparison of there damage. Sorry, but PvP is getting more and more out of balance with every duty officer pack or lockbox.
Empire Veteran
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 7,179
# 13
02-02-2013, 03:20 PM
the game is balanced based on 2 things. the dps and front loaded nature of DHC damage, and the amount of healing and DHC damage blunting needed to tank it. thats why TT exists.

so every other type of damage from sources like cruisers ends up being basically irreverent in the DHC/TT, ES, etc.. tug of war

oh, and every time they add some new thing that heals over time, or boosts regeneration, it DIRECTLY reduces the effectiveness of things like beam arrays, and the other lesser used cruiser weapon single cannons
gateway links-->Norvo Tigan, Telis Latto Ruwon, Sochie Heim, Solana Soleus

Last edited by dontdrunkimshoot; 02-02-2013 at 03:29 PM.
Ensign
Join Date: Jan 2013
Posts: 29
# 14
02-02-2013, 03:52 PM
Why not linearize hull:base-turn-rate across the board and then increase all ships base turn rates by at least 3" after?

Then work on weapons, as they sorely need work.
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 597
# 15
02-02-2013, 03:59 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by p2wsucks View Post

Further, APO extending defensive bonus past initial 5 seconds and cooldown based Doffs have boosted Escort defensive capabilities.
again with the doffs that make omega to global? thoes doffs are not the problem. people have been using 2x omega on escourts for how long?
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,495
# 16
02-02-2013, 04:20 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by broken1981 View Post
again with the doffs that make omega to global? thoes doffs are not the problem. people have been using 2x omega on escourts for how long?
What you quoted was one of many changes I listed including buffs to repair abilities and not the main point in my post. I didn't even suggest looking at it until other things had been done.

"Imo, the APO defense should be fixed to 5 second duration and the BAs procs need to be fixed. Sci shield stripping Boff powers need a boost. Then see how things are."

That said the old 2x omega builds != doffs that put APs at global builds.

effectively APO3x2+xtra LtCommander Tac Boff != APO3+ APO1

effectively APO3x2+APD1x2 +xtra LtCommander Tac Boff != APO3+APO1+APD1 (not that many people spent slots on 3 AP Boffs)

I'm not sure why acknowledging this is a big deal.
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,495
# 17
02-02-2013, 04:24 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by dontdrunkimshoot View Post
the game is balanced based on 2 things. the dps and front loaded nature of DHC damage, and the amount of healing and DHC damage blunting needed to tank it. thats why TT exists.

so every other type of damage from sources like cruisers ends up being basically irreverent in the DHC/TT, ES, etc.. tug of war

oh, and every time they add some new thing that heals over time, or boosts regeneration, it DIRECTLY reduces the effectiveness of things like beam arrays, and the other lesser used cruiser weapon single cannons
Lobi shield mines and to a lesser extent Tet Glider aside, imo Sci shield stripping Boff powers and Target subsystem shields are under powered and also reduces the effectiveness of DoT pressure Damage builds.

Also, there are a larger variety of ways to boost power levels now making defenses and shield resistances more effective than when harder choices had to be made.
Ensign
Join Date: Feb 2013
Posts: 1
# 18 Give cruisers some more speed
02-02-2013, 05:22 PM
I have long advocated giving cruisers more speed. (The fact that cruisers have big WARP nacelles has nothing to do with speed in a PvP space fight, that's the IMPULSE modifier, but presumably, big cruisers would have powerful impulse engines too, right?) I don't think that the base maneuverability of cruisers should be adjusted at all, however if their impulse modifiers were vastly increased, it could create a very interesting tactical situation. Similar, I think to the situation facing pirate raiders in the Caribbean in the golden age of piracy. Pirates had small, maneuverable ships... just great for staying away from the guns of the massive government funded ships of the line that they would attack. However, if one of those big ships of the line got her sails up and made a run for it, forget about it... the smaller ships just didn't have the sails to keep up. Cruisers should have this same tactical advantage in my opinion. If they find an open spot, and want to throttle up their engines and bug out, they should be able to outrun a pack of escorts. Or... if the tide turns their way and they wish to run down an unskilled escort that is just trying to fly away in a straight line (rather than zig-zagging), they should easily be able to do so. To sum it all up; I think that cruisers should keep their slow maneuverability and bad inertia ratings, but they should have their top impulse speed increased beyond escorts! Science vessels would seemingly work well in the "middle of the road" niche in both impulse speed and turn rate, so they should get a modest impulse boost.

Last edited by dungeoncarrot25; 02-02-2013 at 05:51 PM.
Commander
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 272
# 19
02-02-2013, 07:00 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by tlazolteotl80 View Post
I dont think, that cruisers are to weak. The real Problem is the survibility of escorts. They can resist to much damage in comparison of there damage.
Agreed +1. Although reducing escort survivability sounds good to me (*cough* defense bonus), it might be worth a look at cruiser damage again. Back when cruisers were doing more damage, an escort with a failed alpha could rarely stick around for a sustained fight without bleeding out the jugular. Just please don't pigeon cruiser damage builds to FAW

Random tangent: Cryptic's spell check doesn't recognize "survivability" but somehow "jugular" is ok.
K'eg/T'lol/Dude/Yak
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 783
# 20
02-02-2013, 07:20 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by playhard88 View Post
this is the dude that was calling me noob in the other post? Ahahaha

the best premade is a 5 crusiers/carrier team, that is the answer to your post. Escorts are always the weak point in the team
Yeah, if you want to sit there and fall asleep.

Give me 2-3 Vestas and 3-2 Escorts and it'll ruin a 5 Cruiser premade.
The first we heard of getting new PvP maps "soon" was in August of 2010. We're consistently told something will be coming with the "next" update. Absolutely nothing has come to PvP since launch.

I think it's finally time Cryptic stopped stringing us along, don't you?
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