Career Officer
Join Date: Sep 2012
Posts: 193
# 221
02-03-2013, 07:22 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by shpoks View Post
The 'efficient captain' trait also boost 4 passives +10 in space. The alien chars. and the availability to use 4 player chosen skills? Should we begin nefring everything?
Efficient captain gives +15 starship warp core efficiency those days, one boff with efficient gives +7.5 to the same.. that trait isn't all that OP as you make it sound and doesn't really compare well at all with the situation of cats on ground.

If you face a spacer with efficient in space and you don't have that trait the battle is far from being decided already. if two equal good tac's cat vs non-cat meet the outcome is easily predictable. There is no space analogy to cats really, cats are dominating ground pvp and if you'd be a ground pvp veteran like buccaneer you'd know. The biggest glaring issue of cats isn't even really that extra catty-lunge, its the cat-only extra dodge.
___
Tami, Leader of -FS-
Starfleet Veteran
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 597
# 222
02-03-2013, 07:49 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by mikiiy View Post
its the cat-only extra dodge.
while we are on the topic of dodge, we should have to dance for about 10hours plus for a passive. like a +2 to dodge. they really need to make a dodge accolade. 20 hours would give like a +4
Commander
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 455
# 223
02-03-2013, 11:33 PM
To bring the caitian/feresian issue into some perspective.

If it weren't for cats, the choices for ground pvp characters that could compete on an even footing would look something like this:

Ideal for a wide variety of builds:

Alien (fed and kdf) ------- highly customizable
Andorian (fed) ------------- cold resistance (build vs cold gun)
Klingon (fed and kdf) ---- superior versions of widely valuable passives, able to stack Covert and Honorable
Orion female (kdf) -------- activatable placate

Potentially interesting for specific builds / counter-builds.

Gorn (kdf) ------------------ powerful passives, although very limiting
Lethean (kdf) ------------- If I recall correctly, Rapture can be used while cloaked
Bajoran (fed) -------------- ideal for selfish-medic or medic-supported supertanking engineer
Saurian (fed) -------------- fire resistance (build vs physicist)
Tellarite (fed) ------------- interesting possibilities for a selfish-medic, engitank, or maybe (depending on whether Pig-Headed buffs mines) enemy neutralization


As it is, your options are:
Caitian (fed) -------- ideal for all builds
Feresian (kdf) ------ ideal for all builds

or: select any other race, and compete at a disadvantage

Last edited by guriphu; 02-03-2013 at 11:37 PM.
Commander
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 327
# 224
02-04-2013, 01:24 AM
Too many things to comment on all so I will just choose one:

Balance Fleet Ships and Lock Box Ships

Lock Box Ships SHOULD be OP compared to Rear Admiral Ships and even VA Z-Store Ships but not when compared to the best Fleet Ships IMHO

Branflakes compliance:

The reason Lock Box ships are overpowered is because they not only have ten consoles and come with special consoles, but also higher base stats than Fleet Ships. The biggest place this shows up is in the turn rates. Fleet Recon Sci has 13, Wells has 15. Fleet Defiant has 17, JHAS has 20. Simply buffing the turn rates of Fleet Ships to equal Lock Box Ships would probably all that is needed to balance them, though I think personally both options that follow should be considered.

Getting a Fleet Ship takes a huge investment of time and resources from not jsut the one player but from the entire fleet. Lock Box Ship is obtained through either luck or buying from another player via exchange (again a lot of resources, but really not the same level as Fleet Ships)

I propose two possible solutions to this, both of which could be implemented:

1a. Simple balance pass so that Fleet Ships are dead even balance wise with lock box ships. Cryptic/PWE earn good money from both and IMHO the best ships in the game should indeed put money in the coffers. They should however be equal as some of us would rather not gamble and opening lock boxes should not be REQUIRED to have the best ships. Personally I think the Lock Box Ships should stay specced as they currently are and Tier 3 Shipyard and higher Fleet Ships should be buffed to be equal to them.
--OR--
1b. Lower the tiers at which Current Fleet Ships can be obtained and add Lock Box quality ships to T5.

2. Fleet Ships should get the special consoles that come with the z-store counterpart.
Captain
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 2,537
# 225
02-04-2013, 02:19 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by glassguitar View Post
Too many things to comment on all so I will just choose one:

Balance Fleet Ships and Lock Box Ships

Lock Box Ships SHOULD be OP compared to Rear Admiral Ships and even VA Z-Store Ships but not when compared to the best Fleet Ships IMHO

Branflakes compliance:

The reason Lock Box ships are overpowered is because they not only have ten consoles and come with special consoles, but also higher base stats than Fleet Ships. The biggest place this shows up is in the turn rates. Fleet Recon Sci has 13, Wells has 15. Fleet Defiant has 17, JHAS has 20. Simply buffing the turn rates of Fleet Ships to equal Lock Box Ships would probably all that is needed to balance them, though I think personally both options that follow should be considered.

Getting a Fleet Ship takes a huge investment of time and resources from not jsut the one player but from the entire fleet. Lock Box Ship is obtained through either luck or buying from another player via exchange (again a lot of resources, but really not the same level as Fleet Ships)

I propose two possible solutions to this, both of which could be implemented:

1a. Simple balance pass so that Fleet Ships are dead even balance wise with lock box ships. Cryptic/PWE earn good money from both and IMHO the best ships in the game should indeed put money in the coffers. They should however be equal as some of us would rather not gamble and opening lock boxes should not be REQUIRED to have the best ships. Personally I think the Lock Box Ships should stay specced as they currently are and Tier 3 Shipyard and higher Fleet Ships should be buffed to be equal to them.
--OR--
1b. Lower the tiers at which Current Fleet Ships can be obtained and add Lock Box quality ships to T5.

2. Fleet Ships should get the special consoles that come with the z-store counterpart.
This makes sense-at least, points 1 and 1a do. The c-store consoles, imho, should remain c-store only in MOST cases.

I think there should also be a 'balance pass' done between ship classes, however-not a Nerf, a balance pass, some reason a player who wants to be competitive might choose a slow-turning cruiser with beam arrays, or non-carrier Sci ship.

As it currently stands at present, the "Balanced" Cruiser archetype suffers significantly in part due to the ability (via passives, Doffs, etc.) of Escorts to "tank" (resist and/or avoid damage) at the same levels a cruiser does-without any drawbacks that are notable in PvP.

A possible solution would be to adjust weapons power/subsystem power usage using economies of scale. i.e. 8 weapons emplacements using less power per weapon than 7, 7 less than 6, and so on. Aggregate power usage (i.e. how much is drained when using BO3, CRF, FAW and CSV) would end up being close to the same-but the bigger ship is firing more weapons at about the same rate per weapon, giving it roughly the same damage-drop-off on the whole. This is made up for, by the Cruiser's lack of turn rate and impulse speed-the two things that let an Escort or KDF BC do so much MORE damage by getting a target lined up, and the typical Cruiser's lack of Tactical Bridge Officer seating and Tac Consoles.

This would still allow Escorts to run higher 'spike' DPS across that 45 degree forward arc, but it would ALSO make it more dangerous for the Escort, as the Cruiser would be able to apply truly sustained pressure as its damage drop off is slowed and weapons cooldowns are faster, and it would act as a counter to power-draining consoles and abilities without nerfing them.

Effectively, this would bring "Sword" into line with "Shield". An Escort or Raptor could sustain fire intensity longer than a BoP, but not as long as a Cruiser under this model. As weapons fire is not a primary for Science ships, and Bird of Prey type vessels are ambush-burst fighters instead of sustained combatants, the lack of bonuses won't hurt them much in their primary roles, i.e. their world wouldn't change in terms of power usage with weapons from before such a system as this were implemented as I (tried to) describe, but the game would no longer be sliding toward "Escorts on-line" as has been repeatedly complained about.
"when you're out of Birds of Prey, you're out of ships."

Last edited by patrickngo; 02-04-2013 at 02:26 AM.
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 318
# 226
02-04-2013, 09:10 AM
Still on the subject about defense and offense disparity, I'd like to see Willpower becoming more effective against Knockback. (Or, any better means to counter KB chains.) If you have Willpower + Sure Footed + MACO Armor (which I have), it won't be enough to stop some powers with high KB chance, allowing for a few KB chains. Because status resistance is apparently affected by the DR formula, you can't seem to ever get more than about 50-60% resistance to effects. Additionally, KB seems to be augmented by damage buffs, as I seem to be much often KB'd by a superbuffed Lunge.

From my perception this seems to affect KB more than the other effects like stun or confuse. I have 6 points in Willpower, and confuse powers last at most 1~2s on me, which is perfectly fine. However a KB chain of two or three times will lock me out of combat for much longer, enough for a defeat. This seems unbalanced to me since I have so much KB resistance and I intentionally built for it.

On a sort of different note, there also seems to be a bug with stun that if you have a high Willpower level, the stun will wear off quickly, but while you can move again, your ability to use any powers and consumables will be locked for the full duration. This happens to me very often.
Starfleet Veteran
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 597
# 227
02-04-2013, 09:19 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by broken1981 View Post
while we are on the topic of dodge, we should have to dance for about 10hours plus for a passive. like a +2 to dodge. they really need to make a dodge accolade. 20 hours would give like a +4
really? no 1 likes this idea? this could be key to help rp guys like me try to rp in pvp ground. right now i probly have about 80 hours of dance time with no accolade. why cant it be linked to the doge system? dance could be a training course for dodge. i also think it would help alot of the rp guys go into ev suits and try some ground pvp. or even shoot at some borg in elite stf.
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 3,400
# 228
02-04-2013, 09:21 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by glassguitar View Post
Branflakes compliance:

Simply buffing the turn rates of Fleet Ships to equal Lock Box Ships would probably all that is needed to balance them, though I think personally both options that follow should be considered.
You're fooling yourself if you think this is going to happen.

Once fleet ships are unlocked, they become unlocked for ever for that fleet for easy, repeated purchases.

The investment for a fleet newcomer is effectively 0 (beyond ship modules, of course)

Basically what you are suggesting would cut directly into the truly massive (and I guarantee you they are massive) profits that come from master key sales.

They are almost always going to be a little faster, a little stronger or with a better layout than what is typically available (barring metagame shifts that the devs might not realize or consider).


I understand what it is you're aiming for, and I don't disagree with the desire to have this balance as I'd much rather be flying true Fed ships than Alien ones but my inner min-maxer will not let me - but I think most players need a dose of reality when it comes to the state of the game regarding lockbox ships and the importance of revenue in a game that has to answer to share holders.

And no, the fleet ships will never be on the same level of revenue unless players would be willing to purchase them for 20+ fleet ship modules each.


With that being said, the number of Lobi store ships that show up on the market show that people are in fact quite willing to spend that kind of money to obtain certain ships - I just think there would be a riot if the Fleet Regent was made more awesome but also had a new price tag of 40 fleet ship modules (= $200 compare to 800 lobi at ave 4 lobi per $1.25)


Last edited by ussultimatum; 02-04-2013 at 09:43 AM.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Jan 2013
Posts: 141
# 229
02-04-2013, 11:01 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ussultimatum View Post
You're fooling yourself if you think this is going to happen.

Once fleet ships are unlocked, they become unlocked for ever for that fleet for easy, repeated purchases.

The investment for a fleet newcomer is effectively 0 (beyond ship modules, of course)

Basically what you are suggesting would cut directly into the truly massive (and I guarantee you they are massive) profits that come from master key sales.

They are almost always going to be a little faster, a little stronger or with a better layout than what is typically available (barring metagame shifts that the devs might not realize or consider).


I understand what it is you're aiming for, and I don't disagree with the desire to have this balance as I'd much rather be flying true Fed ships than Alien ones but my inner min-maxer will not let me - but I think most players need a dose of reality when it comes to the state of the game regarding lockbox ships and the importance of revenue in a game that has to answer to share holders.

And no, the fleet ships will never be on the same level of revenue unless players would be willing to purchase them for 20+ fleet ship modules each.


With that being said, the number of Lobi store ships that show up on the market show that people are in fact quite willing to spend that kind of money to obtain certain ships - I just think there would be a riot if the Fleet Regent was made more awesome but also had a new price tag of 40 fleet ship modules (= $200 compare to 800 lobi at ave 4 lobi per $1.25)
Overall I think you're right, but there is room for the lockbox ships to still be better without being as overwhelmingly so as they are now.

I think it's also worth considering that the lockbox ships are one of the things people mention for making them leave the game. If they imbalance the playing field too much, they drive customers away. Look at it this way, if you were considering plopping down $20 for a fleet escort, would it be worthwhile given that it would put you at a disadvantage against anyone with a bug? The money for the fleet modules wouldn't be much, but it still seems kind of wasted in comparison.

The sweet spot for Cryptic would be to leave the lockbox ships with a slight edge, but not so much that they make the other fleet ships obsolete. If players aren't going to pay for the lockbox ships, Cryptic should still be trying to make money off them in other ways.
Empire Veteran
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 6,538
# 230
02-04-2013, 12:22 PM
we are seeing a slight toning down of lock box ships, the jem heavy could have easily had a turn rate of 18 or something. the movement stats are quite conservative. and the dread is practically nonviable. the fleet ships are fine, though a bit unimaginative. that was a chance to have more interesting station setups of actual klingon and starfleet ships
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