Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,737
# 71
02-03-2013, 07:25 PM
I accept that they aren't going away. Honest. It would just be nice to see past them to whats borked get that fixed, and then maybe take a sensible approach to building upon a firm base.

And its really not just APO. It's that APO is where it is in the land of Boff's and that it is built upon the very broken acc/def/crit. TT at least is very low in the land of Boff skills so any ship can easily have it. Sorta sad that a Sci Ship NEEDS a tac skill to really make its shields balance to the point where they can withstand a determined alpha. And with TT being such a key component well where's my protection from VM or Subnuc now? Well it's on CD if I even have a copy. So. Huh. I need TT just to make my shields perform the way I need them to so I can survive BECAUSE of this broken mechanic and now ST and ET just get brushed aside. Cause MAYBE I can eat one subnuc. Maybe I can eat one VM. But I can't eat one Alpha! Okay some ships may be able to. But then we'd be splitting hairs.

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Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,495
# 72
02-03-2013, 07:28 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by borgresearcher View Post
assuming a fast ship with 5 tac consoles and a slow ship with 5 eng consoles

while the tac consoles stack, because its a % base dmg added, the plating consoles dont stack as a percentage, they stack using a formula to not allow plating to reach more than 75%, its impossible, so:

assuming mk xii purple consoles

5 tac consoles : +150% of the damage

5 eng plating consoles: ( 40 dmg res magnitude each console)
1 console : 28% damage resistance
2 consoles: 43% dmg res
3 consoles: 51%
4 consoles : 57%
5 consoles: 61%

what you prefer ? 5 tac consoles and 3 engineering on a fast ship
or 5 engineer consoles and 3 tac on a slow ship loosing the turn rate, loosing 60% damage but winning a mere 10%dmg resistance ?

come on ! stop saying cruisers are ok ... where in the world low turn rate and 10% dmg resistance is the same as 60% more dmg and higher turn rate ?


those words are so right, more than 3 engineering consoles is almost useless on pvp in cruisers while you get useless boff layouts too

yes escorts can tank, speed tank ( which almost compensate that little less hull compared to cruisers ),and if you add all those free procs, heals, buffs and stuff you get from sets, tiers, doffs and all kinda stuff like that, escorts benefit more from that than cruisers. Escorts tank almost the same as cruisers, because 20% resistance on escorts is the same on cruisers, 20% of placate is the same, 10% of crit is the same, so why you need a cruiser ? go for the escort, deals 1000000000x more damage and tanks the same


Remove the movement protection of Attack Pattern Omega and one aspect that has given the false impression of ubertoughness of the Escort is gone.
The great wealness of Escorts have always been stopping them in their tracks. Something that currently has been partially removed thanks to Attack Pattern Omega being a minor Polarize Hull.

Frankly I never why it needed both a defensive buff and movement protection buff.


true story again ...
you almost cant stop an escort, because of apo, thats why they can dmg, because they are allways where they want to be, if apo didnt give that movement prottection, it would make it to use a polarize hull to stop tractor beams or something, APO gives it all, prottection, defense, attack, and a doff with crazy cooldown reduction
Aren't there consoles that are slotted in Engineering slots which improve a remote repair/support role? Why wouldn't you be using those if you're in a Cruiser?

There are plenty of doffs that boost a support Cruisers main role (to repair/resist buff an ally). Instead of directly comparing the 2 wouldn't it be better to compare how well they can do their main role? Is there something lacking in a Fed support Cruiser's ability to support it's teammates? If so wouldn't it be better to address that?
Empire Veteran
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 7,179
# 73
02-03-2013, 09:30 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by thissler View Post
Huh. If I was at a loss for words it wouldn't be me would it? But this makes me close. Very close to being at a loss. Then there was some bit about APO combined with Doffs reducing cooldowns a few posts later on.

Yah think?

You take the TT ability out and you really do need to take CRF out as well. ES who cares. All the shield buffs outside of RSP only really work well in the prescence of TT. That's a fact. Work WELL. Not AT ALL. Read carefully. A ship without TT may have to stack a couple shield resistances to have the same level of comfort that TT and any other shield ability gives. But then you get to why we need TT to do what it does, and it isn't just simply DHC's. There's a REASON DHC's can do what they do.

And APO. Hmmmm....who would think that just driving the cooldowns to the level where you could increase uptime of any ability and only use one copy of that ability could EVER be a good call to make? Seriously. Yah lets just double **** up and maybe no one will notice! Cooldowns are a core component of balance and such a degree of foolhardiness shouldn't even be discussed. It should be corrected.

Cheers!
no, it really is JUST DHCs with CRF that are the offense problem. singles and DCs with CRF don't deliver damage in a front loaded enough way to be half as dangerous to you. when DHCs deliver damage, its in the space of a second. DCs and everything else deal their DPS in around 4 seconds, and at no point is it abrupt enough to out damage manual distribution, usual resistance levels, and shield HOTs. it does not open holes, ever, unless your opponent is one of the helpless types. for non DHC damage, its almost like TT is on all the time for them thier damage is so gradual. but healing and damage arent balanced with those things in mind, just the extremes.

you would not need TT if it wasn't for CRF DHC damage. aside from the odd BO, nothing could remove a facing in an instant, something only DHCs can do. it needs to exist only because DHCs exist. both of these things prevent any other energy weapon types from actually mattering outside of an isolated duel.


and these doffs reducing cooldowns, they arent introducing never before seen effects. you could always use APO that quickly back to back if you have 2 copies, same thing for every other skill you can double up. now you don't have to give anything up for that doubled up effect is the difference. well, except doff slots you could use for something else, or 2 LT eng and a ENS eng for the 2 AtB and EPtA 1 you need to make tech doff builds work.
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Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 597
# 74
02-03-2013, 09:47 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by mancom View Post
Usually the explanation is simple: the beam cruiser pilot sucks.

How many good beam cruiser pilots are there? If you exclude the main healers, there really aren't many good players flying these things.

I used to have great success with my tac/fleet excelsior, but now that T4 heals are more widespread, it's futile to shoot a target that has even a little bit of shield resists. Forcing a player to use heals on themselves beyond the self-only EPtS and the occasional ET is almost impossible.

If you like, we can test this sometime and see how my tac/excelsior performs against your ship. Maybe there is a variable that I haven't noticed yet.
sure hilbert, next time i log on and see you in opvp chat ill pm you. ill also put on any sheild you would like me to run. i have borg mk11 omega 12 and maco 12 as well as adopted.
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 597
# 75
02-03-2013, 09:58 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by doomicile View Post
If they're running with two copies of APO and have the proper Doff's, there's no such thing as a disabled Escort and that's part of the problem imo.
even with out ap doffs my omega would still have the cd it has now with ap doffs....ffs people get facts right
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Sep 2012
Posts: 137
# 76
02-04-2013, 04:45 AM
Quote:
no, it really is JUST DHCs with CRF that are the offense problem. singles and DCs with CRF don't deliver damage in a front loaded enough way to be half as dangerous to you. when DHCs deliver damage, its in the space of a second. DCs and everything else deal their DPS in around 4 seconds, and at no point is it abrupt enough to out damage manual distribution, usual resistance levels, and shield HOTs. it does not open holes, ever, unless your opponent is one of the helpless types. for non DHC damage, its almost like TT is on all the time for them thier damage is so gradual. but healing and damage arent balanced with those things in mind, just the extremes.

you would not need TT if it wasn't for CRF DHC damage. aside from the odd BO, nothing could remove a facing in an instant, something only DHCs can do. it needs to exist only because DHCs exist. both of these things prevent any other energy weapon types from actually mattering outside of an isolated duel.
I completely agree with this. For some time now, I've been advocating that all the energy weapon classes need to be reworked. DHC's either need to be retuned to deal damage at a rate similar to the other weapons, or the other weapons need to be retuned to deal damage at a rate similar to DHC's.

While that's happening, CRF needs to be adapted to either effect both cannons and beams, or a new single-fire skill for beams needs to be introduced.

Lastly, certain weapon classes need to be made more effective. DC's are a pitfall choice that no one should ever use. Considering that they're already in the game and continue to be added to the game, it's about time that they were made different in some way. Decreasing their damage a bit and widening their firing arc has been my suggestion, putting them halfway between DHC's and single cannons in damage and firing arc. There are plenty of new cruiser-escort hybrids that need a weapon like this. Also, the introduction of a turret-strength 360 degree beam array wouldn't hurt to give dual beam banks a purpose.

Fixing the weapon classes would go a long way to bridging the gap between ship classes.
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Lag Industries STO/TOR Guild
Captain
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 14,573
# 77
02-04-2013, 05:06 AM
Consider these two boats...

Engineer Captain

Passives
Romulan: Enhanced Shield Systems, Emergency Secondary Shielding
Omega: Hull-Repairing Nanites, Superior Shield Repair


TT1, FAW2, APD2, APO3
THY1, TS2, DPB2

EPtS1, AtS1
ET1

HE1, TSS2

DOFFs: SDO(BFI), DCE(AtS), Conn(TT), ME(ET), EWO(Beam)

Weapons
Fore: Omega Torpedo, Experimental Beam Array, 2x Romulan Plasma Beam Array
Aft: Hyper-Plasma Torpedo, Plasma Mines, Cutting Beam

D/E/S: Borg

Consoles
Tac: 3x Plasma Infuser, Ambiplasma, 0Point
Eng: Neut, SIF, Borg, Tachyokinetic
Sci: Romulan Emitter Array [Pla]


...versus...

Engineer Captain

Passives
Romulan: Enhanced Shield Systems, Emergency Secondary Shielding
Omega: Hull-Repairing Nanites, Superior Shield Repair


TT1, FAW2
TS1

EPtS1, RSP1, DEM2, AtS3
EPtW1, ET2

PH1, HE2, TSS3

DOFFs: SDO(BFI), DCE(AtS), 2x DCE(EPt), WCE(EPt)

Weapons
Fore: Omega Torpedo, Experimental Beam Array, 2x Romulan Plasma Beam Array
Aft: Hyper-Plasma Torpedo, Cutting Beam, 2x Romulan Plasma Beam Array

D/E/S: Borg

Consoles
Tac: 2x Plasma Infuser, Ambiplasma
Eng: Neut, SIF, Borg, Tachyokinetic
Sci: Romulan Emitter Array [Pla], 0Point


...where each has the additional following base stats (unmodified by skills):

Hull: 34500
Shield Modifier: 1
Crew: 50
Devices: 2
Turn: 20
Impulse Modifier: 0.22
Inertia: 70
+15 Weapon Power
+10% Bonus Defense


Hull: 39500
Shield Modifier: 1
Crew: 700
Devices: 4
Turn: 7
Impulse Modifier: 0.15
Inertia: 40
+5 All Power


So in looking at the first ship vs. the second ship (before skills/modifiers):

-5000 Hull
-650 Crew
-2 Devices

+13 Turn
+ 0.07 Impulse Modifier
+30 Inertia
+10 Weapon Power

-5 Aux, Eng, Shield Power
+10% Bonus Defense
+THY1, TS2, DPB2, APD2, APO3

-TS1
+ET1, AtS1
-EPtW1, ET2, RSP1, DEM2, AtS3
+HE1, TSS2
-PH1, HE2, TSS3
+Conn(TT), ME(ET), EWO(Beam)
-2x DCE(EPt), WCE(EPt)
+Plasma Mines
-2x Romulan Plasma Beam Array
+Plasma Infuser

Yes, some of that's basically:
TS2 instead of TS1
ET1 instead of ET2
AtS1 instead of AtS3
HE1 instead of HE2
TSS2 instead of TSS3


Yes, that means the first ship's carrying four of the six heals - missing Science Team and Extend Shields.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Sep 2012
Posts: 137
# 78
02-04-2013, 05:28 AM
Sorry virusdancer, I was straining to follow you through that logic until you said "basically, rank 1 skills are the same as rank 2, so the only difference is 2 heals!", and then I lost you. For the record, I am a cruiser captain. But even I can't sign off on this type of "salesmanship". It's an attempt to compare apples to honeybadgers, all while trying to convince me that a honeybadger pie is basically the same thing only better.
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Lag Industries STO/TOR Guild
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 411
# 79
02-04-2013, 05:31 AM
I think it was with season 3 or 4 that the "power" factor got bigger. The effect of power on dps, on shield strength and regeneration got bigger and people were more forced to adjust power settings during a fight. In those days cruisers had the most benefit, since they had the most power (+5 to all subsystems). They also had the monopoly of having 2 power systems 100% of the time boosted by emergency power by cycling 2 x 2 EptX. Nowadays escorts and science vessels can do the same with only 1 LT engineer by using the damage engineers doffs. Before that, escorts were running 1x or 2x EptS, and that was it. Also, those blue MK XI power boosting consoles gave +7.5 power to a sub system. So cruisers actually had some benefit of their engineering consoles. With the decrease of +power on these consoles, everyone uses now 1x neutronium alloy and P2W to fill them.

So these days with all the doffs and other passives and decrease of power consoles, the cruisers don't make the difference by power anymore. That should be fixed.
Captain
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 14,573
# 80
02-04-2013, 05:33 AM
In regard to the DHCs, I think some people are missing a key factor. In PvE, do you need DHCs? Outside of NWS, do you even need them? I'd say the answer is no. Escorts with SCs or Beams can put out enough damage to complete the optionals for the rest - even Cruisers can. It's at that point with where folks can boost damage.

On the other hand, looking at PvE again - healing? Well, like most MMOs - NPCs become harder by doing more damage rather than being smarter or using more abilities. So healing's bumped up. Need to heal that higher damage, am I right?

So you bring that PvE healing into PvP without the DHCs...and well, it's not going to work, eh? The PvE damage players do w/o DHCs is sufficient because the NPCs aren't healing. In PvP, the players are healing. So tada, DHCs.

DHCs to get past the healing that's come about because of PvE damage.

So if you "nerf" DHCs - healing's going to be OP, eh? You can't touch healing, because that's needed for PvE. Are they going to nerf the damage in PvE for the reduced healing? Not likely. So is it a case of buffing the damage of other weapons? Ignoring the implications that has in PvE, how would that fix anything in PvP?

Whether it's DHCs, DCs, SCs, Turrets, DBBs, Arrays, Torps, or Mines - they're all going to do more damage on an Escort than Cruiser. Tac consoles.

You also face the issue of presenting the Escort with other options - if they can get near damage from another weapon that doesn't require the 45 arc; bam - you've improved their survivability another notch because they don't have to worry about sitting in that arc. Heck, you've also increased their damage because they don't have to sit in that arc.

Well, how about adding some DR to Tac consoles, eh? There's DR on the resistance consoles. Well, would it be right to add DR to Tac consoles without adding DR to other consoles? Wouldn't that lead to adding DR to skill consoles affecting both Eng/Sci consoles as well?

And if we're nerfing X, Y, and Z... well, we're back to the issue of healing again - which would mean redoing PvE completely.

It goes around and around. It's not a simple issue. This quick blurb I've thrown together (without sufficient caffeine) doesn't even come close to taking into account all the variables involved. There are so many variables involved...and different aspects of gameplay where you need to consider them.
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