Captain
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 14,519
# 81
02-04-2013, 05:55 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by voxlagind View Post
Sorry virusdancer, I was straining to follow you through that logic until you said "basically, rank 1 skills are the same as rank 2, so the only difference is 2 heals!", and then I lost you. For the record, I am a cruiser captain. But even I can't sign off on this type of "salesmanship". It's an attempt to compare apples to honeybadgers, all while trying to convince me that a honeybadger pie is basically the same thing only better.
It was not a case of trying to sell that an Escort can have as much survivability as a Cruiser. It was a case of selling that Escorts can have much more survivability than some people claim. On top of that, they're still going to be doing more damage.

It wasn't a case of suggesting that AtS1 is the equivalent of AtS3 or the like by any means.

Personally, I believe the pecking order goes something like this:

Science > Cruiser > Escort > Science > Cruiser

The Cruiser should be able to beat the Escort through attrition in a 1v1. It should be able to take the alpha while still doing enough damage that over an extended period of time the Escort will either pop or disengage.

The Science should be able to beat the Cruiser through debuffing in a 1v1. It should be able to throw such a monkey wrench into what the Cruiser does, that with the combination of offensive/defensive Sci abilities with the damage it can do - the Cruiser will pop (it won't be able to disengage).

The Escort should be able to beat the Science through spike. The Sci simply doesn't have the defensive abilities to handle the Escort's alpha and has to gamble on when to nuke - nuke too soon and they risk getting shredded by GDF - nuke too late, and well it's too late.

Duels are pointless, though - since it's generally going to be a team or multiple players engaged. A Cruiser vs. two Escorts might be a stalemate. The Cruiser can't do enough damage to cover the crosshealing of the two Escorts and while the two Escorts may eventually win that battle of attrition...who's going to spend that long in that fight? Bring a Sci along with that Escort, and pop - that Cruiser's gone. Add a second Cruiser though, well...is that another stalemate?

That's where folks have worked out what comps work best for them. Those combinations don't necessarily fit the duel mentality that some people adhere to...the ships aren't even built the same.

In the end, I think it comes down to certain players - doesn't matter if their Cruiserjocks, Escortjocks, or Scijocks...wanting their ship build to be the best build regardless of the activity. They don't want to accept that they might need to adjust that build depending on what they're doing or who they're doing it with. They don't want to accept that somebody else might be better at doing X while they're better doing Y. Tac, Eng, Sci...Escort, Cruiser, Science Vessel... that doesn't matter. People still think that what they're doing should be the best or equivalent to everything else while doing everything.

Say you've got a SUV, sportscar, and cargo van. I mean, bam - that they're going to be better at doing different things stands out like a sore thumb, right? Escort, Cruiser, Science Vessel... why is it so hard for so many to see it here?
Captain
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 14,519
# 82
02-04-2013, 06:03 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by rudiefix1 View Post
So these days with all the doffs and other passives
They have blurred the lines more and more. It's not just that X ship can do more of what Y used to do, but it's also a case that Y can do more of what X used to do...and Z can do more of both what X or Y did depending on what you choose.

It's kind of funny, looking back at my SUV, sports car, and cargo van while considering this.

They've added:

AWD DOFFs
Seven Passenger Seating DOFFs
Sports Car Maneuvering Passives
Sports Tuned Engine DOFFs
Enhanced Cargo Space Passives

Etc, etc, etc, etc...
Captain
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 14,519
# 83
02-04-2013, 06:12 AM
I can't remember if it was pointed out in the thread earlier or not, but a big problem that exists is the following mentality:

Quote:
Originally Posted by borgresearcher View Post
if the cruisers are the mother of all vessels, with the top weapons, the top technology, the space combat tanks, the frontline battle ships, why people prefer escorts ? theres something wrong here right ?
This isn't Star Trek. It's Star Trek Online.

If STO were designed more like ST - then not only would we have Shuttle missions, we'd have Escort and Science Vessel missions. Cruisers would be at the top of the food chain.

Not only would there be ship specific missions, there would also be career specific story lines. The Tac Captain wouldn't be doing the same story as the Eng or Sci Captain. Perhaps the story would be the same, but the missions undertaken would be different. Consider the almost insignificant accolades you can get depending on your career - those would actually be the major focus of what you're character's doing.

As is, doesn't matter what ship you're in nor what career you selected. It's all the same for the most part.

It's Star Trek Online. It's not Star Trek.

Cryptic grabbed the title from Perpetual...but had the same deadline to ship the game. So we got what we got. Who knows what Cryptic could have done with the game had they had the full development time to do something, eh? They didn't. So we got what we got.

That means accepting that Star Trek Online is Star Trek Online and not Star Trek...online.
Captain
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 14,519
# 84
02-04-2013, 06:40 AM
A disclaimer of sorts, where my bias may lie, etc, etc, etc in regard to my four toons and the ships they can fly:

Fed Eng - can fly Assault Cruiser, Star Cruiser, Support Cruiser, RSV, DSSV, Advanced Escort, Warship. Prefers the Warship.

Fed Sci - can fly Assault Cruiser, Star Cruiser, Support Cruiser, RSV, DSSV, Patrol Escort, Warship. Prefers the DSSV - even though he's dorking around in the Support Cruiser right now, he still prefers the DSSV.

KDF Eng - can fly Heavy Battle Cruiser, Battle Cruiser, Raptor, Warship. Prefers a Battle Cruiser.

KDF Tac - can fly Battle Cruiser, Raptor, Warship, Carrier. Prefers a Carrier.

So four toons: 1 Warship (Escort), 1 Battle Cruiser (Cruiser), 1 DSSV (Science), 1 Carrier (Special).

If the Warship did not exist, the Fed Eng would likely be flying an Assault or Support Cruiser - might even go for an Excelsior.

If they were to run the Bug in a DOFF pack again and I got one, I'd sell it. It wouldn't fit any of my toons nor my playstyle.

I'm still thinking that I want a D'kora for the KDF Eng.

I'm still thinking about an Orb Weaver for the Fed Sci.

The KDF Tac...I've actually been thinking about a Marauder or Kar'Fi But then again, I've also thought about the JHEC, JDread, and Recluse.

So please, go ahead and dismiss anything I say because I'm obviously doing it wrong.

Course, I'm generally having fun without getting my panties bunched up.

The things I think need to be fixed in the game regarding Cruisers/etc:

Engineering Ensign BOFF abilities. Course, that would apply to any vessel with them. It's not just a Cruiser thing. Affects them the most, but it's not limited to them.

The FAW stuff? Well, who knows how many abilities are broken, eh? But again, while that would also affect Cruisers - it's going to affect all ships. A Beam Array's still going to be able to do more damage on an Escort than on a Cruiser. Fixing mods and procs on various abilities is going to affect all ships, and in the end - all of that's going to mean more damage on Escorts than Cruisers anyway.

Cap on turn rate. I believe Escorts are capable of buffing turn way too high. There should be a cap on it. That's not saying that Escort base turn needs to be lowered - Escorts should turn faster than Cruisers. It's a case of saying that vessel should only be able to turn so much before you move from Inertial Dampeners into Star Trek Shake...and you're crew ends up meat pancakes. Cruisers will never approach that cap, but they'll not have to deal with Escorts potentially turning at such extreme rates.

It's not Star Trek...online. It's Star Trek Online. You've got to accept that, right?

So look for balance - not buff mah ship or don't nerf mah ship garbage because somebody's got a preferred playstyle... that doesn't help the game.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Sep 2012
Posts: 137
# 85
02-04-2013, 07:44 AM
Quote:
In regard to the DHCs, I think some people are missing a key factor. In PvE, do you need DHCs? Outside of NWS, do you even need them? I'd say the answer is no. Escorts with SCs or Beams can put out enough damage to complete the optionals for the rest - even Cruisers can. It's at that point with where folks can boost damage.

On the other hand, looking at PvE again - healing? Well, like most MMOs - NPCs become harder by doing more damage rather than being smarter or using more abilities. So healing's bumped up. Need to heal that higher damage, am I right?

So you bring that PvE healing into PvP without the DHCs...and well, it's not going to work, eh? The PvE damage players do w/o DHCs is sufficient because the NPCs aren't healing. In PvP, the players are healing. So tada, DHCs.

DHCs to get past the healing that's come about because of PvE damage.

So if you "nerf" DHCs - healing's going to be OP, eh? You can't touch healing, because that's needed for PvE. Are they going to nerf the damage in PvE for the reduced healing? Not likely. So is it a case of buffing the damage of other weapons? Ignoring the implications that has in PvE, how would that fix anything in PvP?

I think you're missing the point. When we say "nerf DHC's", we're not saying that they should have their damage reduced, we're saying that they should have their firing rate altered to match the other cannon types.

Think about it like this. Over the course of a 4 second volley, Dual Heavy Cannons might deal 40,000 damage. If they worked like the other cannons, that 40,000 damage would be spread evenly over the four seconds at 10,000 damage per second. Instead, those DHC's are dealing 40,000 damage in the first second, and then taking the next three seconds off.

At the end of the day, the damage dealt is the EXACT SAME. It just doesn't come as burst damage, which is the problem in PvP at the moment. Most of the reason that Tactical Team and rolling resistance buffs are so necessary is that burst damage can kill a target between healing ticks, as it's much faster. Coupled with weapon procs, etc, it gets out of hand when an escort drops another ship in within that 3 second window because the burst causes panic or a player isn't aware it's happening until it's too late.

Escorts would do the same amount of damage in PvP, its just that the other ships types would suddenly not be getting dropped in windows of burst damage.

It actually supports your argument that the cruiser type ships should do less damage, but be able to win a war of attrition. Without even tuning the healing of any of the ships, the healing we have now would be able to not be so exploited by quick escort kills. At the same time, escorts would still put out a nice chunk of damage, that in team play would lead to kills.
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Lag Industries STO/TOR Guild
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 3,400
# 86
02-04-2013, 07:54 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by p2wsucks View Post
Aren't there consoles that are slotted in Engineering slots which improve a remote repair/support role? Why wouldn't you be using those if you're in a Cruiser?

This is true.

This is also however a part of why people think Escorts are 'as survivable' as Cruisers.

If you really go to town and build a selfish turtle build, the Escort does not really come close - of course that makes no sense since the other team can farm your friends for kills instead.


Quote:
Originally Posted by p2wsucks View Post
Instead of directly comparing the 2 wouldn't it be better to compare how well they can do their main role?
This is the better question.

The reason this question doesn't get asked as much is because a lot of people probabbly just want to kirk it out in their Cruiser.


If Cruiser Pilots actually asked themselves the hard question about performing their main role, and answered it honestly we'd see a lot less ire about APO/DHCs, and more threads about hybrid sci ships/carriers capable of slotting multiple high level Eng stations.


Last edited by ussultimatum; 02-04-2013 at 08:00 AM.
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,495
# 87
02-04-2013, 09:40 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by voxlagind View Post
I think you're missing the point. When we say "nerf DHC's", we're not saying that they should have their damage reduced, we're saying that they should have their firing rate altered to match the other cannon types.

Think about it like this. Over the course of a 4 second volley, Dual Heavy Cannons might deal 40,000 damage. If they worked like the other cannons, that 40,000 damage would be spread evenly over the four seconds at 10,000 damage per second. Instead, those DHC's are dealing 40,000 damage in the first second, and then taking the next three seconds off.

At the end of the day, the damage dealt is the EXACT SAME. It just doesn't come as burst damage, which is the problem in PvP at the moment. Most of the reason that Tactical Team and rolling resistance buffs are so necessary is that burst damage can kill a target between healing ticks, as it's much faster. Coupled with weapon procs, etc, it gets out of hand when an escort drops another ship in within that 3 second window because the burst causes panic or a player isn't aware it's happening until it's too late.

Escorts would do the same amount of damage in PvP, its just that the other ships types would suddenly not be getting dropped in windows of burst damage.

It actually supports your argument that the cruiser type ships should do less damage, but be able to win a war of attrition. Without even tuning the healing of any of the ships, the healing we have now would be able to not be so exploited by quick escort kills. At the same time, escorts would still put out a nice chunk of damage, that in team play would lead to kills.
Other than BO/HyTorp builds BUFFED DHCs are really the only things that can break ships and it's b/c of the frontloaded damage. If you remove that the game will drag on much more. Seriously against a coordinated premade or even pugmade see how well or poorly DCs do.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Sep 2012
Posts: 137
# 88
02-04-2013, 09:52 AM
Quote:
Other than BO/HyTorp builds BUFFED DHCs are really the only things that can break ships and it's b/c of the frontloaded damage. If you remove that the game will drag on much more. Seriously against a coordinated premade or even pugmade see how well or poorly DCs do.
But the point is that once you remove front-loaded burst damage, you can tune up the damage that weapons do across the board if need be. If all damage is increased, then the disparity between the ship classes in healing starts to become more apparent.

The problem right now is that if you increase damage all around, then burst damage starts to become too effective. What you end up getting is people calling for greater healing across the board to stop escorts from tearing through a hull in a single burst.

Remove burst, and healing and damage can then be tuned properly. As it stands, they're forced to balance healing around burst damage (escorts) which as result makes all the other ship classes who don't burst seem inadequate.
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Lag Industries STO/TOR Guild
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 3,400
# 89
02-04-2013, 10:05 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by voxlagind
Remove burst, and healing and damage can then be tuned properly. As it stands, they're forced to balance healing around burst damage (escorts) which as result makes all the other ship classes who don't burst seem inadequate.
I disagree.

I think what makes weapons like BAs feel antiquated in design is the advent of all of the passive healing/resistance.

These additions are basically the bane of pressure damage (I think with Fleet Shields being the biggest offenders possibly).


"Remove Burst" might as well be "remove escorts" - as escorts are "inadequate" healers and ""inadequate" debuffers/controllers.

Captain
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 14,519
# 90
02-04-2013, 10:19 AM
I've gone through and rewritten this post like three times. Dancing around in spreadsheets, breaking down the firing rate and all the rest - but what it inevitably comes back to is my thinking this is what is being said:

You can build the Cruiser to soak the Escort's Alpha - but in doing so, the Cruiser is not likely to be able to kill the Escort outside of an extended engagement through attrition. Certain Cruiserjocks do not like that. They want to be able to soak the Escort's Alpha and kill the Escort without the extended engagement.

It goes back to the Cruiser being Tank and DPS.

Still though, they could easily make the point in turn of the following:

You can build the Escort to soak the Cruiser's Alpha - but in doing so, the Escort is still likely to be able to kill the Cruiser in a quick engagement if the Cruiser is not built in turn to soak the Escort's Alpha.

+Tank, -DPS
-Tank, +DPS

If an Escort's built for +DPS, it should be built for -Tank.
If a Cruiser's built for +Tank, it should be built for -DPS.
If an Escort's built for +Tank, it should be built for -DPS.
If a Cruiser's built for +DPS, it should be built for -Tank.

The +Tank Cruiser can eventually kill the +DPS Escort.
The +DPS Cruiser...is pretty much going to die to the +DPS Escort or the +Tank Escort.
The +Tank Escort fighting the +Tank Cruiser...well, yeah...stalemate?

So that +DPS Cruiser looking to be able to kill either the +DPS Escort (faster than the +Tank Cruiser can) or the +Tank Escort (which the +Tank Cruiser can't)...would be behind the reasoning to change the firing rate on DHCs to be like DCs? So that less tanking/healing is needed..more damage could be done..swing the balance?

Swinging the balance is not balance though.

And all of this completely ignores Science Vessels as well as all the various hybrids out there and different careers in different ships...etc, etc, etc.

Okay, so the DHCs get "nerfed" to change their firing rate to that of a DC. How will the +Tank Cruiser be killed now? So it's a case of bringing in the Sci to kill the +Tank Cruiser? Won't the +DPS Cruiser just end up complaining then? Cause with what's required to kill that +Tank Cruiser, it's going to be that much more effective against the +DPS Cruiser. So how will Sci have to be changed to satisfy the +DPS Cruiser?

The Cruiser can already kill the Escort...eventually. Sure, if you slap a Healer on that Escort - the Cruiser's not going to be able to kill the Escort. But slap a Healer on the Cruiser, you know - the one the Escort couldn't beat without the Healer. How's that going to go?

That Cruiser that can already kill the Escort...eventually, the faster it's built to kill the Escort - the less likely it is to be able to kill the Escort and the more likely it's to be killed by that Escort.

It kind of goes into other games and discussions from there:

Should a DPS be able to kill a Tank or a Tank beat the DPS? Or should that be a stalemate unless it's decided by skill?

Should a DPS be able to kill a Healer or the Healer beat the DPS? Or should that be a stalemate unless it's decided by skill?

What about the Tank and Healer? Well, they usually just chuckle and go find something else to do...am I right?

One could say that STO's unbalanced, because the +Tank Cruiser can beat the +DPS Escort...eventually. That's not a case that a Cruiser is UP. That's a case that Healing is OP, eh? That a lack of healing can be overcome by a lack of damage. That doesn't quite work - cause if less damage can overcome less healing, more damage should be able to overcome more healing. But that's not the way it works out - the +Tank Cruiser should win that battle of attrition against the +DPS Escort...eventually. Cruisers are OP.

They may not be OP in the manner in which certain Cruiserjocks want them to be...they're definitely not OP in that sense. They're very UP in the way they want to fly them. That doesn't change that they're OP in the game...eh?
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